1997

Re: Macbeth / Children

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 8.1082.  Tuesday, 28 October 1997.

[1]     From:   Steve Sohmer <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Monday, 27 Oct 1997 10:04:20 -0500 (EST)
        Subj:   Re: SHK 8.1072  Qs: Macbeth / Children

[2]     From:   Billy Houck <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Monday, 27 Oct 1997 10:33:12 -0500 (EST)
        Subj:   Re: SHK 8.1077  Re: Macbeth / Children

[3]     From:   Ronald Moyer <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Monday, 27 Oct 1997 09:44:25 -0600 (CST)
        Subj:   Re: SHK 8.1072  Q: Macbeth / Children

[4]     From:   Skip Nicholson <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Monday, 27 Oct 1997 17:28:33 -0800
        Subj:   Re: SHK 8.1077  Re: Macbeth / Children


[1]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Steve Sohmer <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Monday, 27 Oct 1997 10:04:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 8.1072  Qs: Macbeth / Children
Comment:        Re: SHK 8.1072  Qs: Macbeth / Children

Dear Friends,

Macbeth, a former friend once told me, is Shakespeare's play about the
difficulty of founding an hereditary monarchy. Stuart Manger rightly
detects the play's curiosity about the place (and function) of boys in
this scheme.  It has become a scholarly commonplace to note that James
VI of Scotland (James I of England after 3/1603) was descended from
Banquo, and that Shakespeare sanitizes the historical (murderous) Banquo
for the purpose. It's also thought Lady M's claim "I have given suck" is
immaterial (cf. "How many children had Lady Macbeth?" etc.). However,
Macbeth as "tanaise" may have had a legitimate claim to succeed Duncan,
and one of Lady M's children was in fact called (briefly) to the
Scottish throne. James could trace his claim to the title of Scotland
through the female line back to Duncan, and to the throne of England via
the female line to Malcolm, who married Margaret, the granddaughter of
King Edmund II of England, thereby uniting the Celtic and Anglo-Saxon
crowns. Considering the basis of James' claim to the throne of England
in 1603, any descent of title along the female line could hardly be
dismissed as irrelevant. Three of Malcolm's sons by Margaret held the
Scottish throne: Edgar (1097-1107), Alexander I (1107-24), and David I
(1124-5). These boys were the legitimate heirs to the throne of England,
too, which had been usurped by William the Conqueror in 1066. William
was aware of this, and arranged the marriage Malcolm's daughter,
Matilda, to his son Henry I of England.

Malcolm may have also played a decisive role in the Norman conquest.
It's thought he intrigued with Tostig and Harald Haardrade and abetted
their campaign against King Harold, who had succeeded to the English
throne (1/1066) on the death of Edward the Confessor. King Harold
whipped and killed Tostig and Harald H at Stamford Bridge ca. 25
September 1066 while Malcolm sat discreetly on the sidelines in
Scotland. Harold's weary and diminished forces lost a narrow defeat to
William at Hastings three weeks later. In a way, Malcolm was the
Benedict Arnold of Anglo-Saxon England. I expect English schoolboys knew
some of this.

Not incidentally, it was Malcolm's wife, *not* his mother who "Oft'ner
upon her knees than on her feet, Died every day she liv'd." Margaret
became Saint Margaret of Scotland. No minor saint, she was named Patron
Saint of Scotland after Shakespeare's time. But the papal inquiry into
her life and miracles occurred before 1250. Her body (and Malcolm's)
were conspicuously removed to Spain during the Reformation, and her head
went to the Jesuits at Douai. (Her son David also made sainthood.) So
when Macduff chides Malcolm about his saintly "mother" there's another
game afoot. Generally, the received wisdom about "Macbeth" needs to be
received with skepticism.

Hope this is useful.

Steve Sohmer

[2]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Billy Houck <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Monday, 27 Oct 1997 10:33:12 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 8.1077  Re: Macbeth / Children
Comment:        Re: SHK 8.1077  Re: Macbeth / Children

If your primary source of visions of butchery is from the Polanski film,
it must be remembered that his pregnant wife had been butchered by
Charles Manson about a year earlier. His pain is evident in every frame
of that film.

Billy Houck
Arroyo Grande High School

[3]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Ronald Moyer <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Monday, 27 Oct 1997 09:44:25 -0600 (CST)
Subject: 8.1072  Q: Macbeth / Children
Comment:        Re: SHK 8.1072  Q: Macbeth / Children

Mr. Manger,

Heirless Macbeth makes war on children, on heirs, and is tortured by his
"fruitlesse Crowne," "barren Scepter," and "vnlineall Hand."

Perhaps explicable by Eliz. pronunciation and/or the vagaries of Eliz.
spelling (or, more wonderfully, an anachronistic "Freudian slip" by
author or typesetter on behalf of character), but I've always enjoyed
the F1 reading of Macb.'s response to the Witches' prophecies: "If good?
why do I yeeld to that suggestion,/Whose horrid Image doth vnfixe my
Heire" (TLS245-6).

Best,
Ron Moyer

[4]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Skip Nicholson <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Monday, 27 Oct 1997 17:28:33 -0800
Subject: 8.1077  Re: Macbeth / Children
Comment:        Re: SHK 8.1077  Re: Macbeth / Children

As Abigail Quart points out, "This play does seem to be all about heirs,
inheritance, no one to carry on." That's true of all the tragedies,
isn't it? Part of what makes them tragic to us (and, as she points out,
maybe even more so to an Elizabethan audience) is the snuffing out of
the entire line. Caesar (or Brutus, if you prefer), Othello and Macbeth
are childless. Hamlet, Juliet and Romeo are only children. Lear's
daughters all die. So the personal or political tragedy is always the
tragedy of the end of a family as well.

Skip Nicholson

Re: Mary Wroth's Urania

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 8.1081.  Tuesday, 28 October 1997.

[1]     From:   Daniel Traister <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Monday, 27 Oct 1997 09:52:54 -0500 (EST)
        Subj:   Re: SHK 8.1079  Q: Mary Wroth's Urania

[2]     From:   Lila Geller <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Monday, 27 Oct 1997 08:12:16 -0800 (PST)
        Subj:   Re: SHK 8.1079  Q: Mary Wroth's Urania

[3]     From:   Sara Vandenberg <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Monday, 27 Oct 1997 08:40:23 -0800 (PST)
        Subj:   Re: SHK 8.1079  Q: Mary Wroth's Urania

[4]     From:   Maria Concolato <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Monday, 27 Oct 1997 19:08:49 +0100
        Subj:   Re: SHK 8.1079  Q: Mary Wroth's Urania


[1]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Daniel Traister <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Monday, 27 Oct 1997 09:52:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 8.1079  Q: Mary Wroth's Urania
Comment:        Re: SHK 8.1079  Q: Mary Wroth's Urania

David Schalwyk asks "whether the promised edition of Mary Wroth's Urania
has been published yet, or how and where people at the extremities of
the world might get to read it?"

Is this a moment to mention that MANY library catalogs (both union
catalogs, such as-in North America-OCLC and RLIN, and individual library
catalogs) are available online, so that (*even* for people at the round
earth's imagined corners) to search such catalogs is almost immediately
to find, e.g. (from the RLIN database),

AUTHOR: Wroth, Mary, Lady, ca. 1586-ca. 1640.
TITLE: [Countesse of Mountgomeries Urania. Part 1]
       The first part of The Countess of Montgomery's Urania / by
       Lady Mary Wroth ; edited by Josephine A. Roberts.
PUBLISHED: Binghamton, N.Y. : Center for Medieval and Early Renaissance
       Studies, State University of New York at Binghamton, 1995.
PHYSICAL DETAILS: cxx, 821 p. : ill. ; 25 cm.
SERIES: Medieval & Renaissance texts & studies ; v. 140.
OTHER AUTHORS: Roberts, Josephine A.
SUBJECTS: Romances--Adaptations.
          Women--Fiction.
NOTES: Includes bibliographical references and indexes.
LC CALL NUMBER: PR2399.W7 C68 1995
DDC: 823/.3
LCCN: 95-2654
ISBN: 0-86698-176-4 (acid-free paper)

In addition, Ashgate Scolar now makes available a facsimile edition,
also edited by the late Josephine Roberts [ISBN 185928101X] for
US$99.50; but you might, at present, have to search their website to
know about this.

An enormous amount of basic bibliographical information is now readily
available for anyone who has (as many academics *do* have) access to the
web. To discover it requires a bare minimum of "search sophistication."
While many of the highly-touted benefits of the web have yet to be
real-ized, and the amount of sheer garbage that it makes available is
(more or less literally) stunning, *this* sort of information at least
tends to be vast, reliable, and accessible. It may even, now and again,
be useful.

Daniel Traister, Department of Special Collections
Van Pelt-Dietrich Library, University of Pennsylvania

[2]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Lila Geller <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Monday, 27 Oct 1997 08:12:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 8.1079  Q: Mary Wroth's Urania
Comment:        Re: SHK 8.1079  Q: Mary Wroth's Urania

The First Part of The Countess of Montgomery's Urania by Lady Mary Wroth
has been edited by Josephine A Roberts and published by the Medieval and
Renaissance Texts and Studies , Binghamton, New York, 1995.  You can
probably send an order to Mario A. DiCesare at SUNY Binghamton.

Lila Geller
California State U Dominguez Hills
Carson, CA

[3]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Sara Vandenberg <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Monday, 27 Oct 1997 08:40:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 8.1079  Q: Mary Wroth's Urania
Comment:        Re: SHK 8.1079  Q: Mary Wroth's Urania

The First Part of the Countess of Montgomery's Urania, edited by the
late Josephine A. Roberts, is available as vol. 140 of Medieval and
Renaissance Texts and Studies,  from the Renaissance English Texts
Society, ISBN 0-86698-176-4.  The cost is $60, and worth it.

Sara van den Berg
University of Washington

[4]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Maria Concolato <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Monday, 27 Oct 1997 19:08:49 +0100
Subject: 8.1079  Q: Mary Wroth's Urania
Comment:        Re: SHK 8.1079  Q: Mary Wroth's Urania

As far as I know there is no complete edition of this work. A chapter of
Mary Wroth's 'Urania' is included in 'An Anthology of Seventeenth
Century Fiction' (ed. by P.Salzman, Oxford, O.U.P., 1991); the whole
text (STC 26051) is available, however, in microfilm (UMI). Maria
Concolato

Q: Mary Wroth's Urania

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 8.1079.  Monday, 27 October 1997.

From:           David Schalkwyk <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Monday, 27 Oct 1997 13:38:13 SAST-2
Subject:        Mary Wroth's Urania

Does anyone know whether the promised edition of Mary Wroth's Urania has
been published yet, or how and where people at the extremities of the
world might get to read it?

David Schalkwyk
English Department
University of Cape Town

Re: Elizabethan Accents

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 8.1080.  Tuesday, 28 October 1997.

[1]     From:   David Skeele <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Monday, 27 Oct 1997 12:13:57 -0500
        Subj:   Re: Eliz. Accents

[2]     From:   Juul Muller-van Santen" <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Monday, 27 Oct 1997 19:09:10
        Subj:   Re: SHK 8.1076  Re: Elizabethan Accents

[3]     From:   Mike Sirofchuck <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Monday, 27 Oct 1997 03:58:00 -0800
        Subj:   Re: SHK 8.1073  Re: Elizabethan Accents

[4]     From:   W. L. Godshalk <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Monday, 27 Oct 1997 13:54:51 -0500
        Subj:   Re: SHK 8.1076  Re: Elizabethan Accents

[5]     From:   Ronald Moyer <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Monday, 27 Oct 1997 14:51:37 -0600 (CST)
        Subj:   Re: SHK 8.1076  Re: Elizabethan Accents

[6]     From:   Mary Jane Miller <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Monday, 27 Oct 1997 16:12:39 -0500
        Subj:   Re: SHK 8.1076  Re: Elizabethan Accents

[7]     From:   Robin P. Newbegin <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Monday, 27 Oct 1997 16:47:34 -0500
        Subj:   ELIZABETHAN ACCENTS


[1]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From:           David Skeele <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Monday, 27 Oct 1997 12:13:57 -0500
Subject:        Re: Eliz. Accents

Though it is of course impossible to know what the Elizabethan accent
sounded like, there are some who are regarded as experts on the
subject.  John Barton has made an extensive study, and has concluded
that the accent mixed elements of Southern-ish "American" and Scottish
brogue.  On one Playing Shakespeare video, he actually speaks a
soliloquy in this hypothetical accent (I can't remember which tape or
which soliloquy at the moment).  Others insist that a straight
Appalachian dialect is truest, arguing that their almost complete
isolation has kept their accent "pure" for centuries.  The truth is
probably that, given the influx of people from around the globe, there
were a number of variants on the Elizabethan accent, and no one "true"
accent.

One thing we KNOW, however, is that no one went around speaking like
David Niven (barring, of course, some fantastic linguistic
coincidence).  Anyone who insists that Shakespeare must be spoken with
an aristocratic English accent is being patently absurd.  This attitude
stems from the worship of some dim idea of Victorian Shakespeare, the
same attitude which insists, against all evidence and logic, that
Shakespeare must be produced with pedagogic attention to historical
detail, because "that's the way Shakespeare did it."

David Skeele
Slippery Rock University

[2]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Juul Muller-van Santen" <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Monday, 27 Oct 1997 19:09:10
Subject: 8.1076  Re: Elizabethan Accents
Comment:        Re: SHK 8.1076  Re: Elizabethan Accents

Yes, some people do try to reproduce Elizabethan accents. I confine this
to the classroom, as I teach. My students are interested, to an extent.

It's nice to see that people link this to period instruments. In fact,
the Dutch Early Music Movement got me interested. Dutch Baroque vocal
groups now ask me to help with the pronunciation of 16-17-18th C English
when anything from Dowland to Handel is being performed.  Undoubtedly
some of the things I do are wrong, but most of what I have learned comes
from E.J.Dobson, >English Pronunciation 1500-1700< Oxford U.P., second
ed. last printed in 1985, as far as I know.  This is a two-volume work,
with Volume I containing a survey of the (orthoepist) sources and Volume
II Dobson's sound-by-sound discussion. Fascinating stuff!

Julia Muller, Amsterdam

[3]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Mike Sirofchuck <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Monday, 27 Oct 1997 03:58:00 -0800
Subject: 8.1073  Re: Elizabethan Accents
Comment:        Re: SHK 8.1073  Re: Elizabethan Accents

In regard to Elizabethan accents, check out Program 2 "Mother Tongue"
of  The Story Of English video series that was on PBS a while ago and is
available commercially.  There are clips of native Brits and Americans
speaking in similar accents that are supposed to be similar to the
Elizabethan accent.

Mike Sirofchuck
Kodiak High School

P.S. I sent a post giving a source for obtaining the C-Span Trial of
Hamlet.  If you need that phone number, send me a note.

[4]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           W. L. Godshalk <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Monday, 27 Oct 1997 13:54:51 -0500
Subject: 8.1076  Re: Elizabethan Accents
Comment:        Re: SHK 8.1076  Re: Elizabethan Accents

>I remember from forty years ago, Helge K:okeritz' book on Shakespearean
>pronunciation.  He was a historical linguist (Yale), and his work was
>then regarded as definitive.  Has he been disproved, or simply
>forgotten?  As I practiced the sounds he described, they came out as an
>Irish (not Scottish) brogue.

No, Norm, Kokeritz hasn't been forgotten. But any reconstruction of
accents from 500 years ago has to be conjectural. If you recall my
question about "th" some weeks ago, in F <italic>Troilus and
Cressida</italic> Antenor/Anthenor appears in both forms. Antenor
appears early in the script, and Anthenor later-and Anthenor appears
more often.  Did Shakespeare prefer the "th" form? And, if he did, how
did he vocalize the "th"? Obviously any answer to these questions must
be based on argument rather than voice recordings from the 16th century.
And the shift in spelling may be compositorial (or scribal) rather than
au"th"orial.

Yours, Bill Godshalk

[5]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Ronald Moyer <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Monday, 27 Oct 1997 14:51:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: 8.1076  Re: Elizabethan Accents
Comment:        Re: SHK 8.1076  Re: Elizabethan Accents

Mr. Burt,

Hypothetical examples of Elizabethan accents are available from a
variety of sources, including _The Story of English_ (Peter Hall, as I
recall) and John Barton's _Playing Shakespeare_ videos.  While there is
a wonderful richness to the sound-a hint could usefully add relish to a
modern production, I think most audiences would find it curious and,
perhaps, a bit humorous and off-putting.

Regarding use of British accents, there seems no good reason for a
production in the USA to do so-except possibly playing with varieties of
accents in the histories (notably the mixture in H5).  Certainly an
American production adopting modern RP for Rome or Illyria seems
wrong-headed.  John Barton notes that Elizabethan pronunciation seems to
be "a funny mixture of West Country, Ireland, a bit of American," and
goes on to suggest, "I think that American is actually closer to
Elizabethan English than our current English speech.  That's ironic,
because American actors are often worried about not speaking what they
call Standard English, yet they're actually doing it closer to
Shakespeare's way than we are" (_Playing Shakespeare_, 53; the "Language
and Character" video).

Best,
Ron Moyer

[6]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Mary Jane Miller <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Monday, 27 Oct 1997 16:12:39 -0500
Subject: 8.1076  Re: Elizabethan Accents
Comment:        Re: SHK 8.1076  Re: Elizabethan Accents

As I recall, Tyrone Guthrie  said that he wanted the Canadian actors at
Stratford Ont. to use their own accents not some fake English or mid
Atlantic accent  (common in the 50's) because he thought their delivery
was closer to the Elizabethan originals  than mid 20th century English
accents were. Of course that also made the plays more accessible to the
audience - and did not particularly create problems when those accents
were played against those of Alec Guiness, Irene Worth or even  the
strange mix that was James Mason's. Jason Robards, on the other hand,
sounded very American indeed but when I look back that may also have
been playing style.

[7]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Robin P. Newbegin <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Monday, 27 Oct 1997 16:47:34 -0500
Subject:        ELIZABETHAN ACCENTS

Dear All,

Although I have no books or readings to suggest to the posed question on
the effects of differing accents in Shakespeare, I do however have some
feedback on the subject.  I recently watched a video version of "A
Midsummer Night's Dream" in which Puck was portrayed as having an
extremely cockneyed accent (and not to mention a very evil and
frightening nature too.)  Despite my distaste for this version of Puck,
I found myself very intrigued by his accent and felt that it added
greatly to the overall effect of his character.

I also recently watched a South African version of "Othello" that was
both filmed in and portrayed by South African actors.  With the over
bearing issue of racial tension and discrimination in South Africa, I
felt that to portray the characters with a S.A. accent was extremely
effective.  after recently studying in South Africa and witnessing first
hand the on-going racial tension there, I felt the accent made for an
even more powerful effect in respect to the build up of tension between
the characters in the play.

-Sincerely, Robin

CFP: CRRS History and Literature Conference

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 8.1078.  Monday, 27 October 1997.

From:           Stephen Pender <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Friday, 24 Oct 1997 16:45:03 -0400
Subject:        CRRS History and Literature Conference

[Editor's Note: This Call for Papers appeared on Ficino.}

`Motives, pretexts, speeches and events': literature, history and the
use
                   of the past in early modern Europe
                _________________________________________

             An interdisciplinary conference at Victoria College
             in the University of Toronto, 12 and 13 March 1998

                                CALL FOR PAPERS

The Centre for Reformation and Renaissance Studies is pleased to
announce `Motives, pretexts, speeches and events,' a conference that
will focus on the relationship between history and literature in early
modern Europe.  We welcome abstracts and papers that address this
relationship in the early modern period or in current academic inquiry.
`Case studies' are also welcome.

Please send abstracts (300-500 words) or completed papers (20 minutes
speaking time; approximately 10-12 double-spaced pages), by 1 December
1997, to Stephen Pender, Centre for Reformation and Renaissance Studies,
Victoria University in the University of Toronto, 71 Queen's Park
Crescent, Toronto, Ontario, M5S 1K7.  Electronic submissions to
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