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Home :: Archive :: 1998 :: October ::
Re: St. Denis and Joan of Arc
The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 9.1069  Saturday, 31 October 1998.

[1]     From:   Hilary Thimmesh <
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        Date:   Thursday, 29 Oct 1998 10:41:49 -0600
        Subj:   St. Denis and Joan of Arc

[2]     From:   Diana Feliu <
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        Date:   Thursday, 29 Oct 1998 09:59:09 -0800 (PST)
        Subj:   Re: SHK 9.1067 St. George and St. Denis

[3]     From:   Larry Weiss <
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        Date:   Thursday, 29 Oct 1998 14:46:35 -0500
        Subj:   Re: SHK 9.1067 St. George and St. Denis

[4]     From:   Abigail Quart <
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        Date:   Thursday, 29 Oct 1998 19:31:21 -0500
        Subj:   Re: SHK 9.1067 St. George and St. Denis

[5]     From:   Markus Marti <
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        Date:   Friday, 30 Oct 1998 00:56:38 +0000
        Subj:   Re: SHK 9.1067 St. George and St. Denis

[6]     From:   Skip Nicholson <
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        Date:   Thursday, 29 Oct 1998 19:19:36 -0800
        Subj:   Re: SHK 9.1067 St. George and St. Denis

[7]     From:   Phil Rogers <
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        Date:   Friday, 30 Oct 1998 14:01:30 -0500
        Subj:   Re: SHK 9.1067 St. George and St. Denis

[8]     From:   Brooke Brod <
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        Date:   Friday, 30 Oct 1998 15:11:25 -0600
        Subj:   Re: SHK 9.1067 St. George and St. Denis


[1]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Hilary Thimmesh <
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Date:           Thursday, 29 Oct 1998 10:41:49 -0600
Subject:        St. Denis and Joan of Arc

Henry V piously evokes the blessing of St. George and St. Denis on his
marriage to Catherine of Valois.  Both the saints are legendary, Denis
as the 3rd century apostle to the Franks and bishop of Paris.  Joan of
Arc was about eight years old when Henry married Catherine in 1420.
Joan was executed in 1431 for leading French resistance to the English,
as it turned out quite successfully.  Her patronage of France need not
conflict with St. Denis' much older claim since with this sort of title
the more the merrier is the rule.

[2]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Diana Feliu <
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Date:           Thursday, 29 Oct 1998 09:59:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 9.1067 St. George and St. Denis
Comment:        Re: SHK 9.1067 St. George and St. Denis

>This question is probably less in the scope of Shakespeare, but more in
>the scope of theology.  In Henry V, Henry says to Katherine "Shall not
>thou and I, between Saint Denis and Saint George, compound a boy,
>half-French half-English, that shall go to Constantinople and take the
>Turk by the beard?"(Henry V, V, ii, 193-196).  Of course, St. George is
>the Patron Saint of England, but as far as I know France's Patron Saint
>is Joan of Arc.  I guess St. Denis will have to do for Henry, since if I
>am not mistaken, Joan of Arc lived later than Henry V(actually, I'm not
>too sure about that either).  Anyway, does any one know when the French
>changed their Patron Saint.

Actually, Lee, this question has a lot to do with Shakespeare.  I'm not
sure when France did adopt Joan as Patron Saint; however, she is a
prominent character (in my humble opinion the most interesting) in I
Henry VI. In the sixth scene of Act I Charles exclaims, "No longer on
Saint Denis will we cry,/But Joan la Pucelle shall be France's saint."
So, according to the Bard the change took place at this time.  Does
anybody know when Joan was actually canonized?

Diana Feliu
[3]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Larry Weiss <
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Date:           Thursday, 29 Oct 1998 14:46:35 -0500
Subject: 9.1067 St. George and St. Denis
Comment:        Re: SHK 9.1067 St. George and St. Denis

Lee Zhao asked when the French changed their patron saint from Denis to
Joan.

It is interesting that WS (or Greene, or someone else) has a French
character in 1HenVI foretell that Joan will supplant Denis as France's
patron saint.

Actually, however, Joan was not canonized until the 1920's.  And I am
not certain that she is officially "patron saint."  Who would have the
authority to make that determination in the Twentieth Century?  A synod
of French bishops?  The Chamber of Deputies?

[4]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Abigail Quart <
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Date:           Thursday, 29 Oct 1998 19:31:21 -0500
Subject: 9.1067 St. George and St. Denis
Comment:        Re: SHK 9.1067 St. George and St. Denis

Joan was beatified in 1909. She wasn't canonized till 1920. That's
right.  This century. The judgement that condemned her to death in 1431,
however, was annulled in 1456.

The Dauphin she saw crowned at Reims was Charles VII, the young blowhard
disinherited by Henry V's victory and the treaty of Troyes.

[5]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Markus Marti <
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Date:           Friday, 30 Oct 1998 00:56:38 +0000
Subject: 9.1067 St. George and St. Denis
Comment:        Re: SHK 9.1067 St. George and St. Denis

St Joan became Pope Nr 15 in 1920. No, sorry:Joan of Arc became declared
a SAINT by Pope Benedict XV in 1920, having been declared "BLESSED" (
this is the normal preliminary procedure) in 1894 by Pope Leo XIII.
Shakespeare (Saint Will to be) is still waiting in the pope's pipeline,
as there have been no real miracles reported from visitors to his grave.
A pint of bitter  in the Dirty Duck has not yet reached the status of a
bottle of "eau de Lourdes".

Markus Marti

[6]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Skip Nicholson <
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Date:           Thursday, 29 Oct 1998 19:19:36 -0800
Subject: 9.1067 St. George and St. Denis
Comment:        Re: SHK 9.1067 St. George and St. Denis

>Anyway, does any one know when the French changed their Patron Saint.

St. Denis, who lived in the third-century, was the first bishop of
Paris. He is still the city's patron saint.

Cheers,
Skip Nicholson
South Pasadena (CA) HS

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[7]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Phil Rogers <
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Date:           Friday, 30 Oct 1998 14:01:30 -0500
Subject: 9.1067 St. George and St. Denis
Comment:        Re: SHK 9.1067 St. George and St. Denis

Lee Zhao:

Joan of Arc (as the English call her; Jeanne la Pucelle in France)
wasn't canonized until the late 19C (or maybe the early 20C), long after
the Republic of France had much interest in patron saints.  I don't
think she was ever the patron saint of France.

St. Denis, on the other hand, or Dionysius of Paris, who was beheaded on
the hill which came to be known as the Hill of the Martyrs (Montmartre)
in the 3C, was widely considered to be the patron saint of France pretty
soon after that date, and was well-established as such by the 6C.  Thus,
too, the basilica of St. Denis, north of Paris, was always the burial
place of French monarchs until the Revolution.

Cheers,
Phil Rogers

[8]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Brooke Brod <
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Date:           Friday, 30 Oct 1998 15:11:25 -0600
Subject: 9.1067 St. George and St. Denis
Comment:        Re: SHK 9.1067 St. George and St. Denis

From *The Penguin Dictionary of Saints,*  by Donald Attwater.  First
published in 1965:

"Dionysius, or Denis, of Paris, bishop and martyr. d. 258 . . . It was
said in the sixth century that he was a misiionary sent into Gaul in the
year 250, who a few years later was beheaded at the place in Paris now
called Montmartre. . . was claimed as a cephalophore, 'head-carrier':
tha is, one of those martyrs who was fabled to have carried his severed
head to his place of burial, in this case to the site old the abbey
church of Saint-Denys."

"Joan of Arc, the Maid of Orleans. B. at Domremy, c. 1412; d. at Rouen,
1431.  Cannonized in 1920."

Salut,
Brooke
 

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