1998

Qs: Marlowe Plays

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 9.0924  Wednesday, 30 September 1998.

From:           Drew Whitehead <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Wednesday, 30 Sep 1998 14:07:01 +1000 (GMT+1000)
Subject:        Re: Marlowe Plays

I have two questions for the list:

1/ Can anybody recommend a single volume edition of Marlowe's plays that
has annotation on the level of say, the Revel plays series, or the
Riverside Shakespeare?  At present I only have the Penguin edition which
I find is woefully inadequate.  I have been to Amazon.com and seen a few
editions for sale, however, there is too little information available to
be able to discern between them.

2/ Has anybody come across an audio-book version of any of Marlowe's
plays?  If so are they still available?

Thank-you
Drew Whitehead

Re: Elopement and Escape

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 9.0923  Wednesday, 30 September 1998.

[1]     From:   Barrett Fisher <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Tuesday, 29 Sep 1998 11:48:00 -0500
        Subj:   Elopement and Escape

[2]     From:   Bradley Berens <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Tuesday, 29 Sep 1998 10:26:25 -0700
        Subj:   Re: SHK 9.0917  Elopement and Escape

[3]     From:   Stuart Manger <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Tuesday, 29 Sep 1998 23:13:47 +0100
        Subj:   SHK 9.0917 Elopement and Escape


[1]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Barrett Fisher <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Tuesday, 29 Sep 1998 11:48:00 -0500
Subject:        Elopement and Escape

Elisabetta Pavan wrote:

>I have recently studied The Merchant of Venice  for my  English
>Literature examination, and I was surprised to notice some affinities /
>differences between 'The Merchant' and 'Othello' as far as Desdemona and
>Jessica elopement/escape are considered. Even 'the stranger'
>(Othello/Shylock) is worth to be compared.

>Has anybody got any suggestions/ideas ?

>I looked for some essays in the library - unsuccessfully.

I would start with Susan Snyder's book "The Comic Matrix of
Shakespeare's Tragedies" (Princeton, 1979).  I don't recall whether
Snyder addresses this particular connection, but her approach is the
kind of analysis that might deal with such a parallel.  (Similarly, you
might note the Othello/Much Ado parallels, including deception,
eavesdropping, patriarchalism, misogyny, and slander; in fact, in last
spring's production of Much Ado at the Guthrie Theater in Minneapolis,
Claudio was played by a black actor.)

Barrett Fisher
Bethel College (MN)

[2]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Bradley Berens <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Tuesday, 29 Sep 1998 10:26:25 -0700
Subject: 9.0917  Elopement and Escape
Comment:        Re: SHK 9.0917  Elopement and Escape

Dear Friends,

This email is for Elizabetta Pavan, about similarities between Othello
and Merchant.

You might enjoy Leslie Fiedler's book THE STRANGER IN SHAKESPEARE, which
is long on useful insights and short on reliable scholarship.  In other
words, if he presents something that looks like it might be factual or
historical information be suspicious, but if his more interpretative
points can be quite rewarding.

Also, don't forget the Prince of Morocco in Merchant: some of his
language sounds VERY, VERY much like Othello's from the later play.  A.
Barthelme's book Black Face, Maligned Race might also have something
useful for you.

Finally, Stephen Booth has a smart,  interesting, and characteristically
eccentric essay on similarities between Othello and Twelfth Night in one
of those SHAKESPEARE SET FREE volumes edited by Peggy O'Brien.  It's
worth a look and might be inspiring for ways to approach the
Othello/Merchant parallels.

        Best,
        Bradley Berens
        Dept. of English
        U.C. Berkeley

[3]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Stuart Manger <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Tuesday, 29 Sep 1998 23:13:47 +0100
Subject: Elopement and Escape
Comment:        SHK 9.0917 Elopement and Escape

Spectacular example of elopement is, of course, in MND: Hermia and
Lysander. And interestingly, Shakespeare allows it to go wrong, as he
does (following sources) in R and J. I wonder why?

Re: Bankside Globe

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 9.0921  Wednesday, 30 September 1998.

[1]     From:   Mike Jensen <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Tuesday, 29 Sep 1998 09:23:25 -0700
        Subj:   SHK 9.0912  Re: Bankside Globe

[2]     From:   Gabriel Egan <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Tuesday, 29 Sep 1998 15:03:54 -0400
        Subj:   Re: SHK 9.0912  Re: Bankside Globe

[3]     From:   Drew Whitehead <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Wednesday, 30 Sep 1998 09:04:42 +1000 (GMT+1000)
        Subj:   Re: Globe Season

[4]     From:   H. R. Greenberg <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Tuesday, 29 Sep 1998 22:35:43 EDT
        Subj:   Groundlings, real and otherwise was Re: SHK 9.0908  Re: Bankside
Globe


[1]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Mike Jensen <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Tuesday, 29 Sep 1998 09:23:25 -0700
Subject: Re: Bankside Globe -Reply
Comment:        SHK 9.0912  Re: Bankside Globe -Reply

I have been following the audience behavior at the Globe messages with
interest.  As usual, I have more questions than answers, but let's begin
with a story.

Eight years ago next month I attended a Hamlet conference in Berkeley.
The Globe came up, not surprisingly since Sam Waterston was there.  As
an experiment, the audience was encouraged to react while John Vickery
acted a speech from Hamlet.  Vickery, still the best received Hamlet in
Bay Area history, was encouraged to play to the crowd.

I didn't much care for the result.  Vickery was alright, but the
audience, as Sam said, overplayed its part.  It was unnatural.
Spontaneous, maybe, since we didn't know what Mr. Vickery would read and
our reactions were not written and cued, but the audience jumped on any
excuse to react.

OK, given that an audience has a tendency to do that if encouraged, what
do you do?  If you do not encourage a reaction, a lifetime of polite
theater going will tend to make auditors of us all.  Perhaps we need a
nudge to move us to behave like an Elizabethan audience?

Or not?  The reaction is self-conscious and not a natural reaction, so
it is not a trustworthy parallel for the reactions of the Tudor
audience.  Does that invalidate the experiment?

One solution is to not encourage a reaction, see if there is one, let it
develop over time.  But 400 years later, with some in the audience
possessing knowledge that the Elizabethan auditors reacted, are the
results a trustworthy parallel?

Given crowd dynamics, it is possible that the Elizabethan audience
overplayed its part as well.  If one member got a pretty good laugh, it
may have encouraged others to try.  If we had a time machine, would Sam
go back and accuse Tudor audiences of overplaying their parts?
(Successful hecklers in modern comedy shows may parallel that dynamic.)

I don't know the answers, but the questions suggest that some of the
comments on this subject may be a bit simplistic.  They may also have
been right.  It depends on the answers.

Mike Jensen

[2]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Gabriel Egan <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Tuesday, 29 Sep 1998 15:03:54 -0400
Subject: 9.0912  Re: Bankside Globe
Comment:        Re: SHK 9.0912  Re: Bankside Globe

William Williams asks for

> specific examples of the Globe management
> actively encouraging, demanding, hyping, etc.
> the audience's involvement in the performance?

Try Marianne MacDonald, 'Globe director looks forward to the bear pit',
The Independent, 2 August 1995.  As I recall, the title was an accurate
reflection of Rylance's comments in the interview-more or less `come and
pelt us'.

Gabriel Egan

[3]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Drew Whitehead <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Wednesday, 30 Sep 1998 09:04:42 +1000 (GMT+1000)
Subject:        Re: Globe Season

I have a friend who will be in the UK Nov-Jan, and she is very keen on
seeing a performance at the New Globe.  Can anyone inform me as to what
plays will be being performed during this period?

Drew Whitehead

[4]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From:           H. R. Greenberg <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Tuesday, 29 Sep 1998 22:35:43 EDT
Subject: and otherwise was Re: SHK 9.0908  Re:
Comment:        Groundlings, real and otherwise was Re: SHK 9.0908  Re:
Bankside Globe

Dear Prof Simone

I too thought about the 'speak the speech' references to the groundlings
when I was at the Globe. I'm not a scholar in this area, but would be
very interested in whether the uproar, gibes, provocations, etc of the
"general" varied considerably from play to play or were the ruder sort
always there and always inclined to join in the "action"? I would
imagine they were, but even they were capable of being moved, and deeply
so, by S's eloquence and poignancy into something approaching silence.

I somehow free associate to the tribune's angry remonstrances to the
crowd at the beginning of Julius Caesar in this connection-referring to
them as "blocks"  "worse than stones" or somesuch, chiding them for
their shallowness short memory re Pompey etc  similar stuff in
Coriolanus indeed very fulcrum of the play is C's fury at the
"groundlings"

Anyone with further thoughts on the subject?  hr greenberg md

Re: Ed3; Stoicism; Dreams Film

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 9.0922  Wednesday, 30 September 1998.

[1]     From:   Ed Taft <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Tuesday, 29 Sep 1998 11:32:58 -0400 (EDT)
        Subj:   *Edward III*

[2]     From:   Yvonne Bruce <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Tuesday, 29 Sep 1998 12:43:14 -0400
        Subj:   Re: SHK 9.0897  Re: Stoicism, etc., in Julius Caesar

[3]     From:   Michael Friedman <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. >
        Date:   Tuesday, 29 Sep 1998 15:31:38 -0400 (EDT)
        Subj:   Re: SHK 9.0572  Re: Shakespeare Videos


[1]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Ed Taft <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Tuesday, 29 Sep 1998 11:32:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:        *Edward III*

In response to the posts of Lee Zhao and Lee Gibson, an excellent
article arguing that Shakespeare wrote *Edward III* is W.L. Godshalk,
"Shakespeare's *Edward III,* *SRASP* 21 (1998): 69-84. For those who do
not have a copy in your library, you can access volume 21 of *SRASP*
through the WWW: http://www.marshall.edu/engsr/indexsr.htmlx

I'm sure that Bill Godshalk, a frequent contributor to SHK will agree
with my estimate of this essay.

--Ed Taft

[2]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Yvonne Bruce <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Tuesday, 29 Sep 1998 12:43:14 -0400
Subject: 9.0897  Re: Stoicism, etc., in Julius Caesar
Comment:        Re: SHK 9.0897  Re: Stoicism, etc., in Julius Caesar

Louis Swilley responded to my speculation about the unreliability of
soliloquy in <Julius Caesar> by noting that, at least as far as Antony
is concerned, there is no "point" in his speaking unreliably, and that
his soliloquy is not characterized by the soul-searching that
characterizes Brutus' soliloquy.

Agreed. Let me qualify my remark by saying that Antony is not
"purposefully fooling" anyone in his soliloquy, but that he still may be
carried away by his own rhetoric. A critic whose name escapes me has
noted the difficulty of determining Antony's point of view in his
funeral oration: is he inspired to such rhetorical brilliance by
righteous anger at the conspirators, or does he, with the rhetorical
suavity that characterizes the play, just kind of seize the moment? And
don't forget Kenneth Burke's "Antony in Behalf of the Play," which takes
up this notion of excessively self-conscious rhetoric. Several critics
have noted the theatricality peculiar to this play: successful
politicking equals good acting. This seems especially apt for Antony,
else how could the other conspirators be so clueless about the threat he
poses (Cassius suggests he be killed with Caesar, and then that he be
refused leave to speak at Caesar's funeral; both times he is stupidly
overruled by Brutus)?

Before I belabor this, I'd like to hear what others think about the
rhetoric of stoicism in the play. Does "soliloquy" occur in <Julius
Caesar> as it occurs, generally speaking, in the other tragedies-as a
thinking out loud-or does the individual voice lose something by being
forced to speak in the highly stylized, politicized and communal voice
of early imperial Rome?  Since everyone can probably guess which side I
come down on, let me add that this "Roman voice" is a problem not only
in <Julius Caesar> (its soliloquies are carefully doled out, one
significant solo speech each to Brutus, Cassius, and Antony; and its
rhetoric is also notably consistent; ie, there is not a variety of
speaking styles) but in <Coriolanus>, a play that lacks soliloquies.

Mr. Swilley, in the same posting, also expressed dismay over productions
of <Julius Caesar>. He is disturbed by, among other things, the
universal directorial acceptance of Caesar as great, when Shakespeare
shows him to be vain, cowardly, superstitious, etc. This problem is
compounded, writes Mr.  Swilley, by Caesar's becoming great the moment
he is killed. Once dead, Brutus and Antony praise him to the heavens,
and even in soliloquy Antony exclaims over Caesar's awesome presence.

Mr. Swilley has put his finger on something that continues to vex me in
my current work, and is not limited to <Caesar> (and don't forget that
Antony does an about-face once Brutus dies, too). At the end of
<Coriolanus>, after Coriolanus' death, Aufidius goes from "My lords,
when you shall know-as in this rage, / Provoked by him [Coriolanus], you
cannot-the great danger" to "My rage is gone, / And I am struck with
sorrow" in eight lines. Eight lines.  At the end of <Antony and
Cleopatra>, Caesar displays pretty much the same reversal after
Cleopatra's death. These are better than the bed trick. And Shakespeare
is not alone in pulling them off. This same
hatred-vented-into-admiration occurs in <Caesar's Revenge> and Thomas
Lodge's <Wounds of Civil War>, among others. Any comments? Please?

[3]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Michael Friedman <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. >
Date:           Tuesday, 29 Sep 1998 15:31:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 9.0572  Re: Shakespeare Videos
Comment:        Re: SHK 9.0572  Re: Shakespeare Videos

I'm surprised that no one, as yet, has mentioned anything about the new
film "What Dreams May Come" starring Robin Williams.  I haven't seen it
myself, but I'm wondering whether anyone else out there has, and whether
it has any relationship to Shakespeare other than the title.

        Michael Friedman
        University of Scranton

Re: "Shakespeare as television writer?"

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 9.0920  Wednesday, 30 September 1998.

[1]     From:   Dale Lyles <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Tuesday, 29 Sep 1998 12:23:05 EDT
        Subj:   Re: Q: Citation for "Shakespeare as television writer?"

[2]     From:   Richard A. Burt <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Tuesday, 29 Sep 1998 15:41:50 -0400 (EDT)
        Subj:   Re: Q: Citation for "Shakespeare as television writer?"

[3]     From:   Nora Kreimer <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Tuesday, 29 Sep 1998 19:35:05 -0300
        Subj:   Re: Q: Citation for "Shakespeare as television writer?"

[4]     From:   Peggy O'Brien <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Tuesday, 29 Sep 1998 22:11:44 -0500
        Subj:   Re: Q: Citation for "Shakespeare as television writer?"


[1]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Dale Lyles <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Tuesday, 29 Sep 1998 12:23:05 EDT
Subject:        Re: Q: Citation for "Shakespeare as television writer?"

Television?  I always tell students and actors that Shakespeare wrote
for radio.  "So this is the forest of Arden.."  "But room, fairy, here
comes Oberon..."  "Come, bloody Clifford, rough Northumberland..."

Dale Lyles
Newnan Community Theatre Company

[2]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Richard A. Burt <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Tuesday, 29 Sep 1998 15:41:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:        Re: Q: Citation for "Shakespeare as television writer?"

I have heard more frequently that Shakespeare would write for
Hollywood.   This view was articulated on the A & E biography that aired
in 1997.

[3]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Nora Kreimer <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Tuesday, 29 Sep 1998 19:35:05 -0300
Subject:        Re: Q: Citation for "Shakespeare as television writer?"

In IS SHAKESPEARE STILL OUR CONTEMPORARY, edited by Joh Elsom, 1989,
Routledge- London and New York, ISBN 0 415 04404 9, there is an session
you might find useful, on the topic of Shakespeare as a TV writer. "Does
Shakespeare write better for television?".

Nora Kreimer
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

[4]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Peggy O'Brien <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Tuesday, 29 Sep 1998 22:11:44 -0500
Subject:        Re: Q: Citation for "Shakespeare as television writer?"

> Here's why I'm in need: in my third chapter I talk about the old cliche
> that if Shakespeare were working today he'd be a television writer-that
> is, he'd be working in the ultimate mass medium.  Does anybody know
> where this cliche comes from?  Where I can find a reference to it in
> print?  Have any of y'all written it down in an essay that has then been
> published?

"Old cliche?"  Damn!  Who in their right mind is exactly going to rush
to the aid of someone who has just labeled something they've written an
"old cliche?"  But never mind-the world is a wonderful place.  I'm not
sure that I have ever written it, but I have said it more than dozens of
times to all kinds of audiences, especially student audiences.  I
believe this-and quite apart from any of the context that you mention,
Brad.  My thoughts have to do with storytelling and the sexiest, most
dynamic way to tell stories and receive them.  Having gone from a good
long time exclusively in the world of Shakespeare at the Folger Library
to a now semi-long time at the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, I
believe that old cliche now more than ever.

Agedly yours,
Peggy O'Brien

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