Make a Donation

Consider making a donation to support SHAKSPER.

Subscribe to Our Feeds

Current Postings RSS

Announcements RSS

Home :: Archive :: 2001 :: October ::
Re: Sir Toby et al.
The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 12.2356  Tuesday, 16 October 2001

[1]     From:   Don Bloom <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
        Date:   Monday, 15 Oct 2001 13:29:40 -0500
        Subj:   Re: SHK 12.2342 Re: Malvolio, Toby, & Sir Andrew

[2]     From:   Graham Hall <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
        Date:   Tuesday, 16 Oct 2001 09:18:21 +0000
        Subj:   Re: SHK 12.2342 Endless Night


[1]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Don Bloom <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
Date:           Monday, 15 Oct 2001 13:29:40 -0500
Subject: 12.2342 Re: Malvolio, Toby, & Sir Andrew
Comment:        Re: SHK 12.2342 Re: Malvolio, Toby, & Sir Andrew

 W. L. Godshalk, in his response to my earlier post, writes:

>I find this example full of inferences.  Illyria is inferred to be
>Cloud-Cuckoo-Land or Faerie. Actually it has a place on the map, near
>the contemporary Bosnia or Croatia, not exactly a never-never-land in
>Shakespeare's day.

Aside from the fact that I withdrew the statement about inferences in a
posting that accompanied the one where I made the original statement,
this whole response leaves me somewhat baffled (not unlike Malvolio, I
suppose).  I cannot see what Illyria's placement on a map (of this
century or of Shakespeare's) has to do with my point. Ephesus, Navarre,
Padua, Verona and a variety of other places also exist in the plays but
with no more contact to contemporary social and political history than
the sea-coast of Bohemia.

The question was whether we could take seriously the idea of Sebastian
falling in love with a beautiful and well-born young woman who is
clearly already in love with him. I merely wanted to point out that (a)
we have been placed in an exotic locale that necessarily gives the whole
play an aura of the magical; (b) people seem to fall in love quite
suddenly at times even without that.

If you are of the opposing view, you may counter (a) by suggesting that
since Illyira is a real place on real maps, it wouldn't have seemed
exotic to WS -- and, I gather, you have. To me it follows the pattern of
the places I have cited above: names are picked that are far away and no
effort is made to introduce anything of specific local importance
(except the rather vague sea coast).

You may counter (b), if you want, by suggesting that if people fall in
love without knowing each other then they aren't really in love. That is
a matter of definition (and was, I think, Ed's initial point). I, of
course, disagree but there isn't much that can be done about it except
to recognize that we are disagreeing over the precise meaning of "really
in love."

Cheers,
don

[2]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Graham Hall <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
Date:           Tuesday, 16 Oct 2001 09:18:21 +0000
Subject: 12.2342 Endless Night
Comment:        Re: SHK 12.2342 Endless Night

Although this strain has a dying fall, it has been written (various
correspondents):

[...]by the end Toby reveals a side of his character worse than
drunkenness or even than Malvolio's stupidity [...]

[...]in his savagely turning on him at the end ("an ass-head and a
coxcomb and a knave, a thin-fac'd knave, a gull!" Sir Toby's parting
shot to Sir Andrew, who thought at least they could be companions in
injury, is painful to watch [...]

A gull-catcher replies:

If Sir Toby's invective is self-referring, and diverse editors suggest
that it is, then the situation is not quite so clear.

(BTW an historical documentary based upon primary sources about the
plague on BBC  (UK) last night provided some interesting insights about
the characteristics of C17 Londoners - albeit that they were a small
remove (one to two generations) from the turn of C16. The point being
that it would be dangerous to generalize them and even more so
generalize comparisons with us. (Although one historian on the programme
fell into that trap himself - which is where, I believe, this thread
began)

Best wishes, Graham Hall

_______________________________________________________________
S H A K S P E R: The Global Shakespeare Discussion List
Hardy M. Cook, 
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 
The S H A K S P E R Webpage <http://ws.bowiestate.edu>

DISCLAIMER: Although SHAKSPER is a moderated discussion list, the
opinions expressed on it are the sole property of the poster, and the
editor assumes no responsibility for them.
 

©2011 Hardy Cook. All rights reserved.