Make a Donation

Consider making a donation to support SHAKSPER.

Subscribe to Our Feeds

Current Postings RSS

Announcements RSS

Home :: Archive :: 2002 :: February ::
Re: Machiavelli
The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 13.0556  Tuesday, 26 February 2002

[1]     From:           R.A. Cantrell <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
        Date:           Monday, 25 Feb 2002 10:36:51 -0600
        Subj:           Re: SHK 13.0537 Re: Machiavelli

[2]     From:           Steven Marx home <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
        Date:           Monday, 25 Feb 2002 08:44:56 -0800
        Subj:           Re: SHK 13.0537 Re: Machiavelli

[3]     From:           Bill Arnold <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
        Date:           Monday, 25 Feb 2002 09:59:29 -0800 (PST)
        Subj:           Re: SHK 13.0537 Re: Machiavelli


[1]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From:           R.A. Cantrell <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
Date:           Monday, 25 Feb 2002 10:36:51 -0600
Subject: 13.0537 Re: Machiavelli
Comment:        Re: SHK 13.0537 Re: Machiavelli

>> All successful
>> governments including Japan, USA, Britain and Europe conduct their
>> affairs in this manner to keep us all in the lifestyle we know as free
>> democratic consumerism.
>
> Once more: All?  Do you include China, Cuba, North Korea, Iran, Iraq,
> and the late lamented Soviet Union?  Or do those governments employ
> commendable openness because they are less concerned with free
> democratic consumerism?

> someone who actually knows they are doing wrong yet do
> it anyway for their own gain

See Plato; Works.

All the best,
R.A. Cantrell
<
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >

[2]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Steven Marx home <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
Date:           Monday, 25 Feb 2002 08:44:56 -0800
Subject: 13.0537 Re: Machiavelli
Comment:        Re: SHK 13.0537 Re: Machiavelli

More stuff on Machiavelli and Shakespeare:

"Holy War in Henry Fifth"--Shakespeare Survey 48, reprinted in
Shakespearean Criticism [Gale]1996 or at

http://cla.calpoly.edu/~smarx/Publications/henry.html

"Moses and Machiavellism"--Journal of American Academy of Religion Fall
1997 or at:

http://cla.calpoly.edu/~smarx/Publications/moses.html

"Shakespeare's Pacifism" Renaissance quarterly Spring 1992 or at

http://cla.calpoly.edu/~smarx/Publications/pacifism.html

and Chapter 5, "True Lies and False Truths: Measure for Measure and the
Gospels" in _Shakespeare and the Bible_ Oxford Shakespeare Topics 2000

All of these studies are indebted to Peter Donaldson's book,
_Machiavelli and the Mystery of State_, mentioned in today's postings.

Steven Marx
http://cla.calpoly.edu/~smarx

[3]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Bill Arnold <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
Date:           Monday, 25 Feb 2002 09:59:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 13.0537 Re: Machiavelli
Comment:        Re: SHK 13.0537 Re: Machiavelli

Steve Roth writes, "Marlowe's Machiavellian ghost is certainly in (or
strongly influenced by) that class of morality-inspired "vices." But
it's only one of many stage ghosts to influence Hamlet. I think you'd be
hard-pressed to demonstrate that King Hamlet's ghost is "Machiavellian."
...Thanks for the great Machiavelli/Marlowe stuff from Nicholls."

Steve, thanks for the thanks on Nicholls.  I found it a valuable
reference work on Shakespeare, although he's not mentioned in the title.

As to the previous bit about Hamlet's father's ghost.  Let me clarify:
it is, by my notes to this message board, my contention that the ghost
of Hamlet's father must be _questionable_ as to its intent, inasmuch as
it does appear, even as you admit, in the stage line of _many_ ghosts
prior to the play _Hamlet_.  But, the audience was aware of the _evil_
ghost which opened the Marlowe play, were they _not_?  Nicholls wrote
that it played at the Rose in 1592, just prior to the year Marlowe was
murdered.  And what if that _evil_ ghost was particularly in the mind of
Shakespeare when he conceived _Hamlet_? He must have known that he was
doing a _spin-off_ of an earlier Marlowe ghost, and the earlier ghost
was clearly _evil_.  So, he now had a _foil_ character in Marlowe's evil
ghost with which to tease his audience, would he not?  I am suggesting
that this line of reasoning takes note of a different interpretation of
the role of a ghost _opening_ the play for a member of Shakespeare's
audience, than that which we, four centuries later, might view it. In
other words, _Hamlet_ the play needs to be viewed in _context_ of the
largely popular ghost story by Marlowe haunting the minds of London
stagegoers.  Am I suggesting that _Hamlet_ is a ghost story?  Yes.  In
this manner, Hamlet's caution throughout the play is possibly _playing_
to the ghost-minded audience in a way present-day scholarship no longer
considers.  And no I am _not_ suggesting that Hamlet's father's ghost
was Machiavellian.  Just the opposite, I am suggesting that until Hamlet
is fully convinced he is _not_ dealing with just a Machiavellian _evil_
ghost, and the audience is fully convinced, we have not arrived at that
point that the Good Prince emerges and triumphs over the BIG Ghost of
Machiavelli which is BEHIND the play.  In other words, I do view
_Hamlet_ as Shakespeare's greatest play, and a penultimate statement on
ethics and politics.  We cannot forget that _evil_ decade Nicholls
describes in his book _The Reckoning_ which _fostered_ the creation of
_Hamlet_.

Bill Arnold

_______________________________________________________________
S H A K S P E R: The Global Shakespeare Discussion List
Hardy M. Cook, 
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 
The S H A K S P E R Web Site <http://www.shaksper.net>

DISCLAIMER: Although SHAKSPER is a moderated discussion list, the
opinions expressed on it are the sole property of the poster, and the
editor assumes no responsibility for them.
 

©2011 Hardy Cook. All rights reserved.