2003

Echo of Shakespeare?

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 14.0499  Friday, 14 March 2003

From:           Bill Lloyd <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Thursday, 13 Mar 2003 19:07:57 EST
Subject:        Echo of Shakespeare?

Hello All:

What does anyone think about whether the following is an actual echo
[reminiscence? parallel?] or whether it's due to coincidence, common
source or my imagination?

A. from King Edward III [the 'Countess scenes'].

The Earl of Warwick speaks of his daughter:

War:      Even she, my liege, whose beauty tyrants fear,
            As a May blossom with pernicious winds,
            Hath sullied, withered, overcast, and done.
King:     Hath she been fairer, Warwick, than she is?
War:      My gracious king, fair is she not at all,
            If that her self were by to stain her self,
            As I have seen her when she was her self.
                                          [1.2.95-101, Cambridge ed.]

B. from Humour Out of Breath by John Daye
    Q1608; acted by the Children of the King's Revels c1607-08

Duke Antonio speaks of his daughters:

Antonio:       They once were faire, sorrow from that hath changd them;
                  They once knew wealth, but chance hath much estrangd
them.
Francisco:    Have they bin fair? what[,] fayrer than they are?
                  Why tis not possible, this heavenly faire
                  Hath only in it selfe beauties exceed,
                  O then rich, fayre, and onely selves exceed.
                                          3.2 [Bullen p.448.  s,u/v
regularized]

Similarities between A and B [ignoring the number of daughters]:

1. The father states that his daughter's looks have decayed due to hard
times.
2. The lover replies incredulously, Hath she been fairer than she is?
3. It's then said that her beauty is so great that it can only be
compared to itself.
4. Possibly as part of the conceit, the last two lines end with the same
word.

Daye's play is full of echoes of Shakespeare's plays, borrowing
characters, situations and wording, and at different times evoking Romeo
& Juliet, Midsummer Night's Dream, As You Like it, and Twelfth Night
among others.  Since Daye is so enamored of Shakespeare's example it may
be significant that he also seems to be echoing these lines from Edward
III.  But where did he encounter them? Daye came to London c1593<>97--
Could he have remembered them from the original performance? Or did he
see the play in manuscript? Or is there any reason to believe that there
may have been an unrecorded revival of Edward III in the 1600s? Perhaps
even by a children's company? Or is there a common source, say a riff
from Ovid? Speculation runs rampant...

Two further quotations may bear on the question:

C. from Two Gentlemen of Verona:

Silvia:    Belike she thinks that Proteus hath forsook her?
Julia:     I think she doth, and that's her cause of sorrow.
Silvia:    Is she not passing fair?
Julia:     She hath been fairer, madam, than she is:
            When she did think my master lov'd her well...
                                    [Riverside II, 4.4.146-50]

D. from Double Falshood by Lewis Theobald
      [based on Fletcher & Shakespeare's Cardenio?]

Julio:     Is there a Treachery, like This in Baseness,
            Recorded any where? It is the deepest:
            None but Itself can be its Parallel.
                                    [3.1.17, Q1728]

In Passage C, line 150 closely echoes the 'fairer questions' from A and
B above:

A  Hath she been fairer, Warwick, than she is?
B  Have they been fair? What, fairer than they are?
C  She hath been fairer, madam, than she is...

The resemblances in rhythm and phrasing almost make me wonder if all
three lines are echoing a common source, say a line from a popular
ballad or some such.

Passage D resembles all three in that a question is asked; and resembles
C in that it is a betrayal that is the cause of sorrow. But the
interesting resemblance is that of D with A and B, for in all three the
answer to the question is the paradox of something being comparable only
to itself. Pope found the line "None but itself can be its parallel" to
be absurd. Is it possible that it survives from the pre-Theobald stratum
of the play and that it harkens back to the other end of the Shakespeare
Apocrypha? Or is it all a case of 'salmons in both'?

Regards,
Bill Lloyd

_______________________________________________________________
S H A K S P E R: The Global Shakespeare Discussion List
Hardy M. Cook, This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
The S H A K S P E R Web Site <http://www.shaksper.net>

DISCLAIMER: Although SHAKSPER is a moderated discussion list, the
opinions expressed on it are the sole property of the poster, and the
editor assumes no responsibility for them.

Re: WT - Act V scene 2

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 14.0498  Friday, 14 March 2003

[1]     From:   Annalisa Castaldo <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Thursday, 13 Mar 2003 16:26:06 -0500 (EST)
        Subj:   Re: SHK 14.0483 Re: WT - Act V scene 2

[2]     From:   Edward Pixley <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Thursday, 13 Mar 2003 16:54:42 -0500
        Subj:   Re: SHK 14.0466 Re: WT - Act V scene 2


[1]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Annalisa Castaldo <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Thursday, 13 Mar 2003 16:26:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 14.0483 Re: WT - Act V scene 2
Comment:        Re: SHK 14.0483 Re: WT - Act V scene 2

"Cymbeline's enormously long recognition scene - though it works much
better in the theatre than one might anticipate from reading"

I was actually shocked, when I first saw Cymbeline staged, at how funny
the recognition scene was. As character after character stepped forward
with a "but wait, there's more" attitude, the audience's laughter grew
louder. The laughter seemed absolutely necessary, however, to make the
all too quick pardons of Posthumus and Iachimo acceptable.

Annalisa Castaldo

[2]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Edward Pixley <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Thursday, 13 Mar 2003 16:54:42 -0500
Subject: 14.0466 Re: WT - Act V scene 2
Comment:        Re: SHK 14.0466 Re: WT - Act V scene 2

Larry Weiss <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.> writes,

>I wonder what it must have been like to be in the opening day audience
>and not know that Hermione's statue would come to life.

I will never forget seeing a matinee performance of WT at BAM back in
the '80s. The theatre was filled with school audiences from the New York
area, most appearing to be Junior High School age.  Throughout the
production there was a dull hum of students chattering or whispering
among themselves -- until the unveiling of the statue.  For that event,
one could hear a pin drop in the audience.  As soon as it was over, the
dull hum resumed -- until Leontes approached the statue to take its
hand.  Once more, the theatre was absolutely silent. The students seemed
to be holding their breath, awaiting the magic moment.

Through most of the production, I was regretting having attended a
schools performance. But the impact of the play's climax on that group
of students will remain one of the highlights of my theatre experience.
It almost made me aware that, even though teenagers are expending their
surplus energy in ways that seem inappropriate to me, that does not mean
they are not paying attention.

Ed Pixley

_______________________________________________________________
S H A K S P E R: The Global Shakespeare Discussion List
Hardy M. Cook, This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
The S H A K S P E R Web Site <http://www.shaksper.net>

DISCLAIMER: Although SHAKSPER is a moderated discussion list, the
opinions expressed on it are the sole property of the poster, and the
editor assumes no responsibility for them.

M for M

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 14.0496  Friday, 14 March 2003

From:           Billy Houck <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Thursday, 13 Mar 2003 16:10:32 -0500
Subject: 14.0475 M for M
Comment:        Re: SHK 14.0475 M for M

Should anyone actually be planning a trip to see the production of M4M
in LA, might I suggest you make a tour of it. The PCPA Theatrefest in
Santa Maria California (half way up the state) is opening M4M this
weekend with a very small cast  -7 actors total - and if you travel
about another 20 minutes north on 101, you can see my high school
students doing the same show with a cast of 40. We open on the 20th for
a four day run.

Billy Houck
Arroyo Grande High School

_______________________________________________________________
S H A K S P E R: The Global Shakespeare Discussion List
Hardy M. Cook, This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
The S H A K S P E R Web Site <http://www.shaksper.net>

DISCLAIMER: Although SHAKSPER is a moderated discussion list, the
opinions expressed on it are the sole property of the poster, and the
editor assumes no responsibility for them.

Burning Reading

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 14.0497  Friday, 14 March 2003

From:           Mike Jensen <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Thursday, 13 Mar 2003 13:16:04 -0800
Subject:        Burning Reading

Anybody with a reasonable distance may wish to attend a reading of
Beaumont's *Knight of the Burning Pestle* Sunday at Stanford University.

Details may be found here:
http://www.stanford.edu/dept/news/report/news/2003/march12/pestle-312.html

Mike Jensen

_______________________________________________________________
S H A K S P E R: The Global Shakespeare Discussion List
Hardy M. Cook, This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
The S H A K S P E R Web Site <http://www.shaksper.net>

DISCLAIMER: Although SHAKSPER is a moderated discussion list, the
opinions expressed on it are the sole property of the poster, and the
editor assumes no responsibility for them.

Re: Reviews

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 14.0495  Friday, 14 March 2003

[1]     From:   R. A. Cantrell <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Thursday, 13 Mar 2003 10:22:29 -0600
        Subj:   Re: SHK 14.0482 Re: Reviews

[2]     From:   David Lindley <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Fri, 14 Mar 2003 09:17:25 GMT0BST
        Subj:   Reviews etc.


[1]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From:           R. A. Cantrell <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Thursday, 13 Mar 2003 10:22:29 -0600
Subject: 14.0482 Re: Reviews
Comment:        Re: SHK 14.0482 Re: Reviews

>>Am I the only subscriber who is tired of the sniping between Mike Jensen
>>and Charles Weinstein?
>
>No. Get a room, guys.

With a view, or two.

All the best,
R.A. Cantrell

[2]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           David Lindley <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Fri, 14 Mar 2003 09:17:25 GMT0BST
Subject:        Reviews etc.

In another post, which I have deleted, Mr Weinstein wrote, though I may
not quote him exactly:

>'It is the job of Universities to study the best'

Wrong.  It is the job of academics to produce the best study they can of
the material with which they work.  (A zoologist does not study only the
gaudiest of birds, nor a criminologist only the most ingenious of
crimes.)

In this post he writes:

>4.  Those who believe that my standards are too high must make do with
>the possibility that theirs are too low.

No - you may have to contemplate the possibility that your 'standards'
are irrelevant. (One does not use a morocco-bound A to Z to find
directions in the desert, or a finely engineered compass to get from
Piccadilly to the British Library).

I have no objection to theatrical performers writing academic criticism;
it's just that some of them aren't very good at it.

David Lindley

_______________________________________________________________
S H A K S P E R: The Global Shakespeare Discussion List
Hardy M. Cook, This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
The S H A K S P E R Web Site <http://www.shaksper.net>

DISCLAIMER: Although SHAKSPER is a moderated discussion list, the
opinions expressed on it are the sole property of the poster, and the
editor assumes no responsibility for them.

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