Make a Donation

Consider making a donation to support SHAKSPER.

Subscribe to Our Feeds

Current Postings RSS

Announcements RSS

Home :: Archive :: 2003 :: December ::
LION
The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 14.2283  Thursday, 4 December 2003

[1]     From:   Robin Hamilton <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
        Date:   Wednesday, 3 Dec 2003 13:34:41 -0000
        Subj:   Re: SHK 14.2275 LION

[2]     From:   Robin Hamilton <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
        Date:   Wednesday, 3 Dec 2003 13:40:12 -0000
        Subj:   Re: SHK 14.2275 LION

[3]     From:   Bill Lloyd <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
        Date:   Wednesday, 3 Dec 2003 11:34:47 EST
        Subj:   Re: SHK 14.2277 LION

[4]     From:   Holger Schott <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
        Date:   Wednesday, 3 Dec 2003 12:36:23 -0500
        Subj:   Re: SHK 14.2277 LION

[5]     From:   Gabriel Egan <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
        Date:   Wednesday, 3 Dec 2003 20:06:42 -0000
        Subj:   Re: SHK 14.2275 LION

[6]     From:   Steve Roth <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
        Date:   Wednesday, 3 Dec 2003 12:06:05 -0800
        Subj:   Re: SHK 14.2275 LION

[7]     From:   Gabriel Egan <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
        Date:   Wednesday, 3 Dec 2003 22:32:38 -0000
        Subj:   Re: SHK 14.2277 LION


[1]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Robin Hamilton <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
Date:           Wednesday, 3 Dec 2003 13:34:41 -0000
Subject: 14.2275 LION
Comment:        Re: SHK 14.2275 LION

Bill Lloyd <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 > writes,

>I'd like to clarify: frustrated as I am, I don't advocate illegally
>accessing LION, EEBO, etc, nor was I asking how to do so.

Oh, neither was I.  Really.  It's just that, like Bill, as an
"independent scholar" I get frustrated by the limits on access to them,
especially to EEBO.

>As un-sniffy as the BL or CUL
>may be about access, since I don't live nearby it's no good to me. I
>can't fly to England every time I want to look something up. And it's
>not clear to me whether, as I'm not a Cambridge student or teacher, CUL
>would allow me access.

With regard to CUL, as a library member, you have access to their
databases, even if neither student not staff, as long as you're
physically there, but *can't* (as I think Cambridge students and staff
can) access them remotely.  CUL is pretty easy (more so than the BL)
about allowing you to sign-up for a library card -- all you need is a
letter of introduction from Someone Reputable.  They do charge a
subscription, however, but not that much.

>Are there any university libraries that make
>these databases available to people who are not currently registered and
>do not has a current university log-on?

My impression is that the terms-of-use generally restrict access to
"students and members of staff".  A pain.

>There must be thousands of independent scholars out there who would
>benefit [and one hopes that hereby humanity would benefit] from access
>to these and similar databases.

*Concur*

>My understanding is that LION
>is not interested in selling access to individuals, only to
>institutions.

Mine, too.  I'd be -- well, not happy, but willing -- to pay a
reasonable fee for access.  The OED manages to do this for individuals,
after all.

>And excuse my ig'nance-- whuz the SND and DOST?

Dictionary of the Older Scottish Tongue (till 1700) and the Scottish
National Dictionary (post-1700).  They're out at the moment in
multi-volume hardcopy, but are due to be conflated and put on line --
absolutely free and available to *everyone* vai the Web! -- sometime
post-2004.

Who said the Scots were mean?

<g>

Robin Hamilton

[2]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Robin Hamilton <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
Date:           Wednesday, 3 Dec 2003 13:40:12 -0000
Subject: 14.2275 LION
Comment:        Re: SHK 14.2275 LION

Larry Weiss <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 > writes,

>This thread illustrates the difference between the Haves and the Have
>Nots.  The latter send each other whining emails, while the Haves figure
>out how to turn the opportunity to advantage.

I think it more illustrates the difference between institutional and
non-institutional scholars.  Though that might simply be another way of
distinguishing between the Haves and the Have Nots.

Also, to a degree (in the UK) it turns on what in another context here
is described as the post-code lottery.  Things are different if you have
easy (geographical) access to -- say -- the BL or CUL (the two I use).

Robin Hamilton

[3]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Bill Lloyd <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
Date:           Wednesday, 3 Dec 2003 11:34:47 EST
Subject: 14.2277 LION
Comment:        Re: SHK 14.2277 LION

Thanks again to all contributing to this thread; and thanks to Laurie
Richards for her suggestion regarding the possible use of state
universities. As it happens, I am a graduate of my local state
university, and continue to use materials on-site at its library.
However, accessing most of their databases [including LION] requires a
current sign-on and user I.D., so I couldn't just walk in and call it
up. A mysterious benefactor [thanks, Hardy!] has pointed out to me that
by joining my school's alumni association I can regain [almost] full
library privileges, including LION access! So now that I've solved my
own problem, what do I care about my former fellow have-nots? [Just
kidding...]

Laurie Richards' recommendation of Project Gutenberg makes an approach
to a solution. ProjGut itself, however, has only a smattering of
Renaissance texts-- for example not a single hit for any work by Lyly or
Nashe, and its only hit for George Peele is the apocryphal *Merry
Conceited Jests*. But there are enough Renaissance texts out there to
make cybersearching a reasonable first option. In fact, right here on
our very own SHAKSPER [see About SHAKSPER on the Home Page] you can
click on Recommended Shakespeare-related Internet Sites and find many
useful texts at or through Luminarium, or Michael Best's Internet
Shakespeare Editions, or Richard Bear's Darkwing, or Voice of the
Shuttle, or Elizabethan Authors, or sites at Rutgers, UPenn, UVa and
elsewhere. [This list is incomplete-- sorry if I've missed you or your
favorite site.]  As I mentioned in an earlier post, when I went looking
for Lyly texts to count I found 3 of his 8 plays plus a pamphlet,
searchable on-line. Not bad, but ultimately not enough.

So, a good links page approaches the state of being an Alternative LION,
as Thomas Larque envisions. As more texts get added to the various sites
it gets better and better-- but there's still a looong way to go before
the scope of AltLion approaches that of LION/EEBO. And the free e-texts
come in a variety of formats [html, pdf...] and seem to be searchable at
differing levels. Some kind of uniformity might be a goal.

Gabriel Egan's suggestion that the BSA [as well as mine that the SAA]
subscribe to LION and EEBO and make them available to members seems a
workable idea. Perhaps for a reasonable fee, which the organizations can
split with UMI? Even if we can't afford the thousands of pounds or
dollars needed to subscribe to LION/EEBO directly, most of us can afford
to join such organizations.

Bill Lloyd
Director of Haughton Studies
The Chettle Institute

[4]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Holger Schott <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
Date:           Wednesday, 3 Dec 2003 12:36:23 -0500
Subject: 14.2277 LION
Comment:        Re: SHK 14.2277 LION

Stuart Hampton-Reeves wrote,

> I guess I am one of the 'have-nots', hence my ignorant assumption that
> EEBO is, like LION, a database of text files. Image capture does require
> significantly more memory. It is an inefficient way of storing texts,
> although I understand there is a project in progress to produce text
> files.

If EEBO's purpose was simply to provide transcripts of early modern
_texts_, the charge of inefficiency might carry some weight, but since
the site offers microfilmed images of early modern _books_, a project
that necessitates the reproduction of the material features of print,
image files are the only possible solution as far as I can see (unless
one would want to struggle with type facsimiles). Because of the
technical limitations that have already been mentioned, EEBO might not
replace the need for consulting rare books collections if one's research
depends on bibliographical details, but as a means of access to early
modern texts in a form reasonably similar to their original publication,
it is absolutely invaluable.

Holger

[5]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Gabriel Egan <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
Date:           Wednesday, 3 Dec 2003 20:06:42 -0000
Subject: 14.2275 LION
Comment:        Re: SHK 14.2275 LION

David Lindley wrote,

>In particular, if one is attempting
>word-searches on old-spelling texts,
>it is an arduous business to be sure
>that one has caught all the variants
>- and all too easy too rush to false
>conclusions when one hasn't.  More
>frustratingly still, when the database
>was first issued on CD-ROM it was possible
>to construct complex searches which
>included spelling variants for each
>of the terms.  One could enter, for
>example: (soft or softe) f[ollowed]b[y]
>(music or musick or musicke); in the
>web version you simply have to repeat
>the search over and over entering the
>possible variants one by one.

This is quite true of the current version of LION, but the flaws are
addressed in next version, due out January 2004. The bracketing of terms
in just the way David illustrates will work.

>I raised this with representatives from
>Chadwyck Healy when the web version was
>launched - and was told it's simply a
>function of web technology.

Clearly that answer wasn't true. The processing of searches is done by
the server and is limited only by the complexity of programming in the
scripts that do the work and by the amount of processing power that the
provider allocates to the task.

Gabriel Egan

[6]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Steve Roth <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
Date:           Wednesday, 3 Dec 2003 12:06:05 -0800
Subject: 14.2275 LION
Comment:        Re: SHK 14.2275 LION

Gabriel Egan:

>I recall that I
>promised Stuart Hampton-Reeves at the British Shakespeare Association
>(BSA) meeting in August that I'd contact ProQuest to explore the
>possibility of making LION and EEBO available at special rates to
>individual BSA members.

Thanks, Gabriel. Individual rates, period, would be a big step forward.
Discounts for BSA (and SSA, etc.) members would be dandy. There are no
few folks out here would like to give them some money, if they were just
willing to take it.

Steve

[7]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Gabriel Egan <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
Date:           Wednesday, 3 Dec 2003 22:32:38 -0000
Subject: 14.2277 LION
Comment:        Re: SHK 14.2277 LION

Stuart Hampton-Reeves wrote,

>Image capture does require
>significantly more memory.
>It is an inefficient way of
>storing texts...

Indeed, but they're not really 'texts' are they? The value of EEBO is
that the microfilms on which it is based retain bibliographical
information--that is, information about the book as physical
object--that is lost in a type reprint or etext. For example, one can
make deductions about the order of press-work from the reuse of skeleton
formes using EEBO images.

Stuart's calculations about the increases in storage capacity available
on desktop computers right; they are indeed getting close to the power
and storage of the dedicated servers of just a few years ago. This'll
make it cheaper for ProQuest to replace the hardware they invested in a
few years ago, but doesn't lessen the repayments on that hardware.

>I'm not surprised that C&H nearly went under but this
>only seems to prove that their business model was flawed.

I suppose the model was flawed: the sensible thing to do would have been
not to try to produce searchable etexts of all English literature, for
the market is too small and the costs are too high. I'm glad that they
did, though.

Gabriel Egan

_______________________________________________________________
S H A K S P E R: The Global Shakespeare Discussion List
Hardy M. Cook, 
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 
The S H A K S P E R Web Site <http://www.shaksper.net>

DISCLAIMER: Although SHAKSPER is a moderated discussion list, the
opinions expressed on it are the sole property of the poster, and the
editor assumes no responsibility for them.
 

©2011 Hardy Cook. All rights reserved.