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Home :: Archive :: 2003 :: June ::
Re: A Lover's Complaint
The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 14.1186  Friday, 13 June 2003

[1]     From:   D Bloom <
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        Date:   Thursday, 12 Jun 2003 11:32:49 -0500
        Subj:   Re: SHK 14.1158 Re: A Lover's Complaint

[2]     From:   Bill Lloyd <
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        Date:   Thursday, 12 Jun 2003 13:16:57 EDT
        Subj:   Re: SHK 14.1173 Re: A Lover's Complaint

[3]     From:   Sean Lawrence <
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        Date:   Thursday, 12 Jun 2003 19:41:16 -0300
        Subj:   Re: SHK 14.1173 Re: A Lover's Complaint


[1]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From:           D Bloom <
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Date:           Thursday, 12 Jun 2003 11:32:49 -0500
Subject: 14.1158 Re: A Lover's Complaint
Comment:        Re: SHK 14.1158 Re: A Lover's Complaint

Gabriel Egan

>* I have on my computer every word that I've typed since 1990 and a
>search for 'gazillion' shows that I've never written it before. Based on
>my past behaviour one might confidently assert that I don't use it, yet
>here I am imitating Elliott's use of it.

Does that prove that you collaborated on that particular document? Is
borrowing or quoting an example of collaboration? If you use a word to
prove that you never use the word are you contradicting yourself?

(A favorite children's story involved two boy who, for reasons that I
can't remember, decide to make valentine for some group. One says
they'll need a gazillion and the other responds (despondently), "A
gazillion? Gee, that's a lot of valentines.")

Cheers,
don

[2]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Bill Lloyd <
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Date:           Thursday, 12 Jun 2003 13:16:57 EDT
Subject: 14.1173 Re: A Lover's Complaint
Comment:        Re: SHK 14.1173 Re: A Lover's Complaint

I must admit the fine points of statistical testing are sometimes a
little beyond me-- when one side makes an argument it seems reasonable
to me and then when the other side makes a counter-argument, that also
seems reasonable to me. I guess I need to read up. Both Jim Carroll and
Ward Elliott seem to make sense-- I'm going to guess that the 'answer'
is that ya need to do all the tests all the ways, and that though all
tests give results, not all results are significant. [Not sure who I'm
agreeing with here...]

I agree that substylistic and metrical analysis can often identify an
author whether he is writing a pastoral poem or a tragic drama, but I'm
not so sure that someone making a conscious decision to =alter= his
style or to emulate another writer's style would never be able to beat
the house. If someone who normally wrote like T.S. Eliot decided to
write verse in the style of A. E. Housman, would we be able to suss him
out by his clinging syllables? Or if Truman Capote decided to write a
parody in the style of Jack Kerouac ["That's not writing, that's
typing."] would function word and relative position analysis reveal the
true author? I suspect it might not...

Speculative scenario time again. I didn't suggest, as Ward Elliott seems
to think I did, that A Lover's Complaint was perhaps by Chapman, but
rather that it may have been Shakespeare imitating Chapman which is not
at all the same thing and would not necessarily test like either poet.
Why would someone do that? We can only speculate, but we have at least
one example of Shakespeare doing so-- the Pyrrhus-Priam-Hecuba speeches
in Hamlet in which he emulates [school of] Marlowe. Who was the Rival
Poet of the Sonnets?  Might Shakespeare have wanted to show his skill in
that poet's style? He might even have failed-- the sometimes archaic,
sometimes clotted, sometimes clumsy, sometimes Shakespearean writing in
LC smacks to me of a failed experiment.

William Herbert and William Shakespeare. James Shirley's patron and
friend William Cavendish Earl of Newcastle had aspirations to be a
playwright, and in some of his early efforts was aided and corrected by
Shirley so that there are several pays that it's hard to say whether
they're by Shirley or Cavendish. If I recall, Oscar Wilde sometimes
helped Bosie compose, and he certainly corrected his English translation
of Salome. The Waste Land is, not surprisingly, more Poundian than
Eliot's other works. If Shakespeare's patron [?] and friend [?] William
Herbert was composing a Complaint, perhaps in response or in competition
to poems [sonnets?] Shakespeare had sent him, and eventually WS sat down
with WH and helped him and essentially co-wrote it, what would that look
like? And how would it test? Very speculative scenario, I know, and I'm
afraid of looking a bit like Auntie Stratt here, but I'm just offering
it as a guess, and the parallels are real, and the circumstances are not
discordant with WS's genuine biography. Not sure what can be done with
such a speculation -- test Herbert's writings? -- but there it is.

I too am guilty of SHOUTING in ALL CAPS for EMPHASIS, because I'm given
to understand that italics and underlining don't translate well from one
e-mail system to another, and I'm such a poor typist that I dislike
using shift-position alternatives such as *asterisks* or _bottomlines_.
I think I'll use =equals= to indicate italicization for emphasis and see
how that works.

Regards,
Bill Lloyd

[3]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Sean Lawrence <
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Date:           Thursday, 12 Jun 2003 19:41:16 -0300
Subject: 14.1173 Re: A Lover's Complaint
Comment:        Re: SHK 14.1173 Re: A Lover's Complaint

Bill Arnold writes,

>Actually, I required all students to write in journals and write in
>lower-case cursive so as to learn to write FASTER!  I do write
>occasionally in CAPS in REALLY tough-to-convey situations for EMPHASIS
>and do not consider it to be shouting :)  Of course I was and am
>unconventional and do not like _emphasis_ for emphasis in email, but
>then I guess I could opt for *emphasis* for emphasis, but then I would
>be considered TOO conventional :)  N'est-ce pas?

Pas de tout.  It doesn't matter whether you consider the use of caps to
be shouting, since it remains an internet convention that it is.  A deaf
person can't hear himself shout, but he should be sensitive to his
listener.  Besides, as a teacher of composition surely you can find less
vulgar means of drawing attention to individual words.  "Italics," wrote
the Fowler brothers, "are a confession of weakness".

Cheers,
Sean.

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