2004

Henry, Earl of Richmond

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 15.1718  Tuesday, 14 September 2004

From:           Martin Steward <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Monday, 13 Sep 2004 20:11:12 +0100
Subject: Henry, Earl of Richmond
Comment:        SHK 15.1708 Henry, Earl of Richmond

Burn, Michael, "Why No Henry VII?"

But surely Shakespeare did write Henry VII - under the pseudonym
"Francis Bacon".

m

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Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 15.1717  Tuesday, 14 September 2004

[1]     From:   Himadri Chatterjee <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Monday, 13 Sep 2004 12:10:46 +0100 (BST)
        Subj:   Re: SHK 15.1705 Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?

[2]     From:   Arthur Lindley <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Monday, 13 Sep 2004 19:40:42 +0800
        Subj:   RE: SHK 15.1705 Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?

[3]     From:   John Briggs <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Monday, 13 Sep 2004 14:11:40 +0100
        Subj:   Re: SHK 15.1705 Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?

[4]     From:   Hugh Grady <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Monday, 13 Sep 2004 09:15:44 -0400
        Subj:   Re: SHK 15.1705 Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?

[5]     From:   David Nicol <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Monday, 13 Sep 2004 13:23:07 +0000
        Subj:   RE: SHK 15.1705 Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?

[6]     From:   Kathy Dent <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Monday, 13 Sep 2004 16:09:40 +0100
        Subj:   RE: SHK 15.1705 Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?

[7]     From:   Kathleen DiVito <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Monday, 13 Sep 2004 09:05:48 -0700
        Subj:   Re: SHK 15.1705 Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?

[8]     From:   Wan-Yu Lin <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Monday, 13 Sep 2004 17:56:21 +0100
        Subj:   RE: SHK 15.1705 Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?

[9]     From:   Martin Steward <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Monday, 13 Sep 2004 20:03:03 +0100
        Subj:   SHK 15.1705 Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?

[10]     From:  Chris Jacobs <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Tuesday, 14 Sep 2004 08:45:16 +0800
        Subj:   Re: SHK 15.1705 Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?

[11]     From:  Kenneth Chan <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
        Date:   Tuesday, 14 Sep 2004 12:53:40 +0800
        Subj:   Re: SHK 15.1705 Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?


[1]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Himadri Chatterjee <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Monday, 13 Sep 2004 12:10:46 +0100 (BST)
Subject: 15.1705 Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?
Comment:        Re: SHK 15.1705 Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?

 >Can anyone tell me why Indians called Asians in the
 >UK?  In the U.S.,
 >Asian is reserved for Japanese, Chinese, and
 >Koreans.   Indians are
 >called Indians.  In the UK, this seems to be
 >reversed.  Only Indians are
 >called Asians.
 >
 >Is that right?

Speaking as someone of Indian origin who has lived in the UK now for
nearly 40 years:

The term "Asian" covers not only Indians, but also Pakistanis,
Bangladeshis, and Sri Lankans. Since there is no generic term to cover
everyone originating from the Indian subcontinent, the term "Asian" is
preferred.

However, this term appears, in the UK, not to cover anyone of Chinese,
Korean or Japanese descent, or anyone from Thailand, Singapore, Hong
Kong, etc. This is because there are more people in the UK originating
from the Indian subcontinent than from other parts of Asia.

Regards,
Himadri Chatterjee

[2]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Arthur Lindley <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Monday, 13 Sep 2004 19:40:42 +0800
Subject: 15.1705 Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?
Comment:        RE: SHK 15.1705 Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?

There is a very simple answer, Richard: the configuration of the British
Empire in the 19th- and early 20th-Century meant that the Asians the
British encountered most and those who came to Britain in the greatest
numbers were south Asians: Indians, Pakistanis, Sri Lankans, to use the
present terms.  In British English, Chinese, Singaporeans et al. are (or
were) commonly referred to as East Asians.  Americans, of course,
encountered primarily Pacific-rim Asians and, I suppose, came to think
of Indians as something else.  That, at least, is my impression as
someone who was born in Hawaii and raised in southern California.

Regards,
Arthur

[3]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           John Briggs <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Monday, 13 Sep 2004 14:11:40 +0100
Subject: 15.1705 Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?
Comment:        Re: SHK 15.1705 Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?

Richard Burt asked (somewhat peculiarly - one hopes that he was
meditating on the "base Indian"/"base Judean" crux in 'Othello'):

 >Can anyone tell me why Indians called Asians in the UK?

The short answer is because India is in Asia.  The long answer is given
later.

 >In the U.S., Asian is reserved for Japanese, Chinese, and Koreans.

This is a somewhat mysterious statement - which would seem to encourage
stereotyped views regarding Americans' knowledge of geography.

 > Indians are called Indians.

This is at least encouraging.  However, as George W. Bush has been known
to refer to Pakistanis as "Pakis", the confidence may be misplaced.

 >In the UK, this seems to be reversed.  Only Indians are
 >called Asians.  Is that right?

No, it is not right.  It is true, however, that the largest number of
British Asians are those whose ethnic origin is the Indian
sub-continent. Those whose origin is Pakistan, Bangladesh or Sri Lanka
are understandably not happy at being described as "Indian".
Furthermore, many of them object to the use of the term "Indian
sub-continent", so the somewhat misleading term "South Asia" is often
used instead.  In the circumstances, the use of the term "Asian" is
remarkably unproblematic.

John Briggs

[4]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Hugh Grady <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Monday, 13 Sep 2004 09:15:44 -0400
Subject: 15.1705 Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?
Comment:        Re: SHK 15.1705 Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?

Re: Indians and Asians

I agree with Richard Burt that the term "Asian" in the US generally
evokes East Asians. But I can attest the existence of an Asian-American
Democratic Party group that includes Indians. I don't think there's a
hard and fast distinction.

--Hugh Grady

[5]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           David Nicol <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Monday, 13 Sep 2004 13:23:07 +0000
Subject: 15.1705 Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?
Comment:        RE: SHK 15.1705 Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?

Richard Burt asks:

 >Can anyone tell me why Indians called Asians in the UK?  In the U.S.,
Asian is reserved for >Japanese, Chinese, and Koreans.   Indians are
called Indians.  In the UK, this seems to be >reversed.  Only Indians
are called Asians.
 >Is that right?

Not quite.

The reason so-called 'Indians' are often called 'Asian' in Britain is
that there are many Pakistanis and Bangladeshis who don't like being
called Indian, for rather obvious historical reasons.

It's not true that people of Japanese, Chinese, or Korean origins are
never called 'Asian' in the UK although you're right that nowadays the
word is more likely to refer to
persons-from-the-Indian-subcontinent-and-its-surrounding-regions; I
think it often includes people from the Middle East as well.

David Nicol

[6]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Kathy Dent <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Monday, 13 Sep 2004 16:09:40 +0100
Subject: 15.1705 Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?
Comment:        RE: SHK 15.1705 Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?

In the UK we have substantial populations of Pakistanis, Bangladeshis
and Sri Lankans who come from the Indian subcontinent: too many of them
would be offended by being lumped together under the general tem
'Indians'.  The majority of Indians are Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists; the
majority of Pakistanis and Bangladeshis are Moslem, so they tend to feel
their cultural differences quite strongly.

In contrast, although we have a significant Chinese population, there
are comparatively few Japanese, Koreans or Indonesians, so identifying
them all by a single generic term never happened.

Kathy Dent

[7]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Kathleen DiVito <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Monday, 13 Sep 2004 09:05:48 -0700
Subject: 15.1705 Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?
Comment:        Re: SHK 15.1705 Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?

Is it because Indians are from South Asia, and therefore are Asian, and
because the primary contact that people in the UK have had with any
group from Asia has been with peoples from the Indian subcontinent?
(These are guesses.)

[8]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Wan-Yu Lin <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Monday, 13 Sep 2004 17:56:21 +0100
Subject: 15.1705 Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?
Comment:        RE: SHK 15.1705 Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?

As far as I know, Asians in the UK can mean people from India, Pakistan
and Bangladesh.

[9]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Martin Steward <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Monday, 13 Sep 2004 20:03:03 +0100
Subject: Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?
Comment:        SHK 15.1705 Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?

Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis are generally referred to as "the
Asian community" in the UK.

I suspect this has something to do with the colonial history.

As you say, the Chinese community is usually referred to as "the Chinese
community".

The UK doesn't have a similarly sizeable Korean or Japanese population,
as far as I am aware.

For the record, I live in London.

m

[10]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Chris Jacobs <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Tuesday, 14 Sep 2004 08:45:16 +0800
Subject: 15.1705 Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?
Comment:        Re: SHK 15.1705 Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?

Dear Richard,

No, it is not correct.

I surmise that to the majority of us Brits, Asia starts somewhere just
to the right of the Middle East but also extends to the left a bit as
one moves the finger up the page, until one gets to those bits referred
to as Eastern Europe, and all the way across the page to the right until
one dips the digit into the Pacific Ocean.

As a Brit, albeit one who has lived and worked in various parts of
'Asia', predominantly South East Asia, for the last twenty years or so,
I can assure you that even the Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, et al, are
referred to as 'Asians', and not just those fascinating folk from India.

Kindly
Christopher Jacobs

[11]-------------------------------------------------------------
From:           Kenneth Chan <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Tuesday, 14 Sep 2004 12:53:40 +0800
Subject: 15.1705 Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?
Comment:        Re: SHK 15.1705 Why Are Indians Called Asians In The UK?

If I understand correctly, Japanese, Chinese, and Koreans are not called
"Asians" in the UK because they are considered there as "Orientals."

Regards
Kenneth Chan

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Shakespeare's Leap

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 15.1715  Tuesday, 14 September 2004

From:           Nancy Charlton <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Monday, 13 Sep 2004 13:58:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:        Shakespeare's Leap

I am surprised that no one mentioned this article in Monday's posts.
Somewhat related is this one:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/12/opinion/12rosen.html?th

Nancy Charlton
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Shakespeare's Leap
September 12, 2004
By STEPHEN GREENBLATT

How did the son of a provincial glovemaker become the greatest
playwright of all time? By plunging into the streets.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/12/magazine/12SHAKESPEARE.html?ex=1096098326&ei=1&en=bd49524bf1b2e4c8

_______________________________________________________________
S H A K S P E R: The Global Shakespeare Discussion List
Hardy M. Cook, This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
The S H A K S P E R Web Site <http://www.shaksper.net>

DISCLAIMER: Although SHAKSPER is a moderated discussion list, the
opinions expressed on it are the sole property of the poster, and the
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C18 Shakespeare Quotations

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 15.1716  Tuesday, 14 September 2004

From:           Colin Cox <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Monday, 13 Sep 2004 12:51:20 -0700
Subject: 15.1703 C18 Shakespeare Quotations
Comment:        Re: SHK 15.1703 C18 Shakespeare Quotations

 >The first is the famous comment on Macklin's performance of Shylock in
 >1741 that he portrayed "the Jew that Shakespeare drew."  This is
 >commonly attributed to Pope but can anyone tell me the source more
 >specifically?

As I recall this was from a song, attributed to Pope:

This is the Jew
That Shakespeare drew.

George II's recommendation to Sir Robert Walpole on a way to frighten
the House of Commons was, "why don't you send them to see that Irishman
play Shylock?" - Macklin was the Irishman to whom the king referred.

Colin Cox

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Spellings of the Name Shakespeare

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 15.1714  Tuesday, 14 September 2004

From:           Curt L. Tofteland <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date:           Monday, 13 Sep 2004 09:56:50 EDT
Subject:        Spellings of the Name Shakespeare

Greetings,

I am seeking information for the questions that follow.

Please feel free to respond to the list or to my email address
(This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.).

1.  What are all the spellings of the name Shakespeare?

2.  What are titles that have been attached to William Shakespeare?
(i.e. Bard of Avon, That Stratford Man, etc.)

3.  Has anyone on the list made up a title, name or phrase for Shakespeare?

Thanks in advance for your assistance.

Regards,
Curt L. Tofteland
Producing Artistic Director
Kentucky Shakespeare Festival

Founder & Producing Artistic Director
Shakespeare Behind Bars

_______________________________________________________________
S H A K S P E R: The Global Shakespeare Discussion List
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DISCLAIMER: Although SHAKSPER is a moderated discussion list, the
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