2005

Celtic or English Folklore Purgatory

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 16.2026  Thursday, 8 December 2005

From: 		Peter Bridgman <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Wednesday, 7 Dec 2005 19:56:57 -0000
Subject: 16.2015 Celtic or English Folklore Purgatory
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.2015 Celtic or English Folklore Purgatory

Bill Arnold writes ...

 >Thanks to Peter Bridgman, perhaps the premise of Shakespeare's
 >Hamlet might be brought into a more proper focus ...

Bill flatters me unnecessarily.  The Hamlet-St. Patrick's Purgatory 
connection has been written about by lots of people, notably Stephen 
Greenblatt who devotes much of his book 'Hamlet in Purgatory' to the 
subject.

Peter Bridgman

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Hic et ubique

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 16.2025  Thursday, 8 December 2005

[1] 	From: 	Jim Blackie <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
	Date: 	Wednesday, 7 Dec 2005 08:37:03 -0800 (PST)
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.2014 Hic et ubique

[2] 	From: 	L. Swilley <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
	Date: 	Wednesday, 7 Dec 2005 11:33:12 -0600
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.2014 Hic et ubique

[3] 	From: 	Larry Weiss <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
	Date: 	Wednesday, 07 Dec 2005 15:00:57 -0500
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.2014 Hic et ubique

[4] 	From: 	Scot Zarela <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
	Date: 	Wednesday, 7 Dec 2005 14:09:10 -0800
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.2014 Hic et ubique

[5] 	From: 	Alan Pierpoint <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
	Date: 	Wednesday, 7 Dec 2005 23:41:07 EST
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.2014 Hic et ubique


[1]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		Jim Blackie <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Wednesday, 7 Dec 2005 08:37:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 16.2014 Hic et ubique
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.2014 Hic et ubique

Sarah Cohen asked about a question raised by Frank Whigham concerning 
Hamlet moving around the stage when he swears them to silence: is he 
moving in fear or wariness. She points to "Hic et ubique? Then we'll 
change our ground"

Initially Hamlet is trying to elude his partners/friends in order to 
follow the ghost who/which seems to want a private word with his/its 
son. - That is very different from the instances in which Hamlet is 
swearing his friends to silence.

The "Hic et ubique?" line asks/tells us the ghost is here and 
everywhere, therefore inescapable. Why move someplace else then? I think 
it is neither fear or wariness or even searching, but rather his frantic 
excitement over the moment, his adrenaline high, he moves about 
nervously. He shows no fear of the ghost hearing (of course) or of the 
spirit itself. Alternately- as he was (to me) trying to instill fear of 
the ghost in Marcellus, this was an attempt to demonstrate the inability 
of a human to escape the ghost should it need to "do something" to the 
person breaking his word. - In fact, I think that is most probably the 
more correct interpretation.

Jim Blackie

[2]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		L. Swilley <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Wednesday, 7 Dec 2005 11:33:12 -0600
Subject: 16.2014 Hic et ubique
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.2014 Hic et ubique

Might it be that Hamlet understands that the Ghost wants to secure 
secrecy "here and everywhere" and that the moving about would make that 
point - and tend to satisfy the Ghost on it?

    L. Swilley

[3]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		Larry Weiss <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Wednesday, 07 Dec 2005 15:00:57 -0500
Subject: 16.2014 Hic et ubique
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.2014 Hic et ubique

 >where can I find Jenkins and those subtle and apt LNs?

Jenkins was the editor of Arden2 "Hamlet."  I think it is still in 
print.  If you can't get it at www.bardcentral.com, you can get it at 
Amazon.

"LNs" is nothing more mysterious than "long notes" which Jenkins put at 
the end of the book, rather than the margins.

[4]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		Scot Zarela <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Wednesday, 7 Dec 2005 14:09:10 -0800
Subject: 16.2014 Hic et ubique
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.2014 Hic et ubique

Sarah Cohen asks:  "Do most of the members of this list think Hamlet is 
moving away from the ghost?  If so, why?  ...  I have always thought 
that Hamlet is moving towards the ghost during the swearing business. 
After all, he has spent the entire scene chasing it.  ...  If Hamlet's 
fear and wariness overpowers his need to search for his noble father in 
the dust (or the cellarage), when does this happen, and why?  Have list 
members seen a production of Hamlet where the prince was clearly moving 
away from the ghost's voice, rather than following it?  Have any of you 
played Hamlet that way?  Did it work?"

I've seen Hamlet move away from the Ghost's voice, never towards it. 
Occasionally this part of the scene is cut.  (I think Gielgud, when he 
directed the Richard Burton Hamlet, cut the business-you could check 
this in Richard L. Sterne's published journal of the production:  as I 
recall, the reason for the cut was that the director and star agreed 
this particular admixture of comic business into a generally somber 
scene never quite worked.  In Gielgud's production, the Ghost was 
represented as an offstage-mic'd-voice, and an unfocused light.  I can 
certainly see how any funny business would be a wrench there.)

When I have seen the Old Mole scene acted, the motivation for Hamlet's 
move away hasn't always been "fear and wariness":  what's worked best 
for me has been an excess of high spirits, which reads ambiguously as 
both an attractive side of Hamlet's personality, and (especially circa 
1600) a sign of incipient madness ... real or pretended.  Could he run 
towards the voice instead of away from it?  Perhaps, but there's a sense 
of a game of tag here, with its excited reversal: the Ghost eluded him 
at first, so now he runs from it.  (Another game of tag comes later, in 
"Hide fox and all after".)

-- Scot

[5]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		Alan Pierpoint <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Wednesday, 7 Dec 2005 23:41:07 EST
Subject: 16.2014 Hic et ubique
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.2014 Hic et ubique

Shakespeare is playing this part of the scene for comedy; none of 
Hamlet's words, from the entrance of Horatio and Marcellus to the last 
"swear," suggest a wish to avoid the ghost.  Therefore, towards.  -Alan 
Pierpoint

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Former Soldier Cites H5

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 16.2023  Thursday, 8 December 2005

From: 		Richard Burt <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Wednesday, 7 Dec 2005 17:58:19 -0500
Subject: 	Former Soldier Cites H5

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2005/11/13/all_in_the_family?mode=PF

All in the Family
Returning soldiers and their spouses, parents, and children are the 
backbone of the antiwar movement spreading today in the United States. 
And they're speaking louder than ever.

By Nan Levinson  |  November 13, 2005

Much as Iraq vets may have appreciated the hate-the-war-love-the-warrior 
stance of this new antiwar movement, now that they have returned to 
civilian life, some are eager to speak for themselves. At 25, Joseph 
Turcotte of Derry, New Hampshire, is that state's youngest member of 
Veterans for Peace and also one of a handful of IVAW members in New 
England. . . .

Turcotte is a reader - the bedroom of his tiny apartment is dominated by 
a bursting bookcase - and his reading had made him skeptical about the 
need for war, he says. Still, he echoes other soldiers as he explains, 
"When you're out there, the only thing relevant is staying alive and 
making sure everyone comes home." Turcotte has thought hard about what 
he and his fellow soldiers do. "`Every subject's duty is the King's, but 
every subject's soul is his own,' " he quotes from Henry V. "I don't 
blame the individual soldiers. As far as they can't control where they 
are, I think that their souls are safe. But for the men who sent them, I 
think they're finding out that there's going to be hell to pay for it."

Courtesy of Scott Newstock.

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opinions expressed on it are the sole property of the poster, and the 
editor assumes no responsibility for them.

Claudius and Realpolitik

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 16.2024  Thursday, 8 December 2005

From: 		Stuart Manger <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Thursday, 08 Dec 2005 00:44:04 +0000
Subject: 16.2019 Claudius and Realpolitik
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.2019 Claudius and Realpolitik

Not sure I entirely agree with Abigail Quart: Machiavellian 
'realpolitik'? Princes must rule, and I wonder if the lesson of so many 
Renaissance plays is that 'ruling' nearly always involves using state 
muscle, not asking too many awkward questions, not challenging the 
Prince too claustrophobically in his dealings? The safety of the state 
is important such that individuals within it might feel they can trust 
the Prince's governance. The problem comes in the grey areas when 
protecting the state oversteps moral or international law perhaps? Is 
that not what Claudius has done?

Have we not been here before? Are we not indeed there now as Ms Rice 
globetrots to justify rendering extraordinarily [or not as the case may 
be]? By all accounts, Claudius seems a rather effective ruler - and that 
effectiveness may well be manifest in some pretty unpleasant dealings, 
but would I feel safer with Claudius ruling me than a man who thinks too 
precisely upon the event? If H would have proved royally, does that mean 
he would have been less decisive than Claudius but more moral? Or more 
the man who, as Ms Quart suggests, has had a pretty bloody hand in a 
number of extra-judicial killings?

Tricky stuff.

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Hardy M. Cook, This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
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DISCLAIMER: Although SHAKSPER is a moderated discussion list, the 
opinions expressed on it are the sole property of the poster, and the 
editor assumes no responsibility for them.

Reminder

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 16.2022  Thursday, 8 December 2005

From: 		Hardy M. Cook <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Thursday, December 08, 2005
Subject: 	Reminder

On Tuesday (SHK 16.2009), I announced that I was undertaking an 
experiment.

Tomorrow (Friday, December 9, 2005), I will end these threads: 
"Gertrude-Ophelia"; "Lions and Tigers and Wagers...oh my..."; 
"Shadowplay"; and "Living Characters." Today's digests of the four 
topics will be further identifies with Penultimate in the Subject line. 
Tomorrow's, with Closed.

Anyone who is compelled to comment should begin a new thread with a new 
Subject line that identifies as precisely as possible the aspect of the 
discussion that you would like to continue.

Yesterday, I announced another option that I endorse wholeheartedly.

On his own, Tom Krause set up a Yahoo group to discuss the theories he 
set forth in his paper "A Picture in Little Is Worth a Thousand Words: 
Debasement in Hamlet and Measure for Measure."

I encourage other SHAKSPER members to follow his lead and example. This 
might be done individually or in groups. For example, over the years, 
plays such as <I>Hamlet</I> or characters such as Shylock have initiated 
extensive and impassioned exchanges.  Those who have a fervent interest 
in a particular play, character, theory, or interpretative method after 
setting up specific-purpose groups would be able to debate unencumbered 
by my intrusions. When such a group exists, members could refer others 
to the group rather than repeating their arguments on SHAKSPER.

I will do all I can to assist in the establishing of such groups.

Hardy

_______________________________________________________________
S H A K S P E R: The Global Shakespeare Discussion List
Hardy M. Cook, This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
The S H A K S P E R Web Site <http://www.shaksper.net>

DISCLAIMER: Although SHAKSPER is a moderated discussion list, the 
opinions expressed on it are the sole property of the poster, and the 
editor assumes no responsibility for them.

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