2005

Dead Horses and Closing Threads

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 16.1914  Monday, 21 November 2005

[1] 	From: 	Hardy M. Cook <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
	Date: 	Monday, November 21, 2005
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.1906  Dead Horses and Closing Threads

[2] 	From: 	Bob Rosen <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
	Date: 	Saturday, 19 Nov 2005 12:52:35 EST
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.1906  Dead Horses and Closing Threads

[3] 	From: 	Stuart Manger <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
	Date: 	Saturday, 19 Nov 2005 18:28:37 -0000
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.1906 Dead Horses and Closing Threads

[4] 	From: 	Stephen Rose <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
	Date: 	Saturday, 19 Nov 2005 10:43:16 -0800
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.1906 Dead Horses and Closing Threads

[5] 	From: 	Marvin Bennet Krims <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
	Date: 	Saturday, 19 Nov 2005 14:23:36 -0500
	Subj: 	RE: SHK 16.1906 Dead Horses and Closing Threads

[6] 	From: 	John W. Kennedy <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
	Date: 	Saturday, 19 Nov 2005 14:42:46 -0500
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.1906 Dead Horses and Closing Threads

[7] 	From: 	Sarah Cohen <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
	Date: 	Saturday, 19 Nov 2005 18:22:21 -0800
	Subj: 	RE: SHK 16.1906 Dead Horses and Closing Threads

[8] 	From: 	David Evett <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
	Date: 	Saturday, 19 Nov 2005 22:15:54 -0500
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.1889 Dead Horses and Closing Threads

[9] 	From: 	David Bishop <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
	Date: 	Sunday, 20 Nov 2005 01:33:33 -0500
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.1906 Dead Horses and Closing Threads

[10]	 From: 	Phyllis Gorfain <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
	Date: 	Sunday, 20 Nov 2005 23:30:12 -0500
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.1906 Dead Horses and Closing Threads



[1]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		Hardy M. Cook <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Monday, November 21, 2005
Subject: 16.1906  Dead Horses and Closing Threads
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.1906  Dead Horses and Closing Threads

Dear SHAKSPEReans,

A few years before the end of his career, a past rector of my church 
announced that he wanted parishioners to comment on his sermons. I know 
exactly what motivated him to make such a request. He had been hired, 
before I arrived, for the quality of his sermons. He was very good, but 
after years and years of delivering variations of the same theme he 
began to question his effectiveness. Some were so dissatisfied that 
anything that he did was wrong. Others were so satisfied that they did 
not think anything was wrong. And others longed for the good old days 
when the message was new and the excitement was palpable. As an activist 
senior warden who came of age in the during the Civil-Rights Movement, 
Anti-War Movement, and the Women's Movement of the late sixties and 
early seventies, I had become close to this man and had a sense of what 
he was going through, so I commented.

Now, SHAKSPER is approaching its seventeenth birthday, and both it and I 
are showing signs of our age.

Like my former rector, I too appreciate feedback and welcome these 
occasional meta-discussions about SHAKSPER's purpose. I also realize 
that some members are pleased with the list just as it is, that others 
are dissatisfied, and that some long for the early times. I am 
considering all that is being said, and I am glad that members care 
enough to express their views. Thanks.

[2]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		Bob Rosen <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Saturday, 19 Nov 2005 12:52:35 EST
Subject: 16.1906  Dead Horses and Closing Threads
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.1906  Dead Horses and Closing Threads


 >I applaud Hardy's decision to close discussions on the listserv earlier.
 >It's impossible to please everyone, but Holger Syme is certainly right
 >that SHAKSPER has become less appealing to scholars, because so much
 >commentary is ill-informed and repetitive. Maybe it's impossible for a
 >single listserv to be useful to both a popular and academic audience,
 >but as one who mostly lurks and quickly deletes, I would be grateful to
 >have shallow and poorly informed commentary brought to a swifter end,
 >especially if those involved show little or no inclination to read
 >carefully considered views that have been published elsewhere than on
 >the listserv. --John Cox

Us groundlings were also at the Globe.

Bob Rosen

[3]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		Stuart Manger <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Saturday, 19 Nov 2005 18:28:37 -0000
Subject: 16.1906 Dead Horses and Closing Threads
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.1906 Dead Horses and Closing Threads

A topic I would add to those already suggested for the blacklist is that 
of undergraduates and high school students asking for experts virtually 
to write their essays for them, and who clearly indicate / admit quite 
cheerfully that they have read next to nothing, or who understand 
nothing - particularly the question that they have been set apparently! 
Such requests are framed of course usually rather more obscurely than a 
bald demand, although we have had a number even of those in the last few 
months. Now, I realise a problem here: it may be that out of the mouths 
of babes etc come interesting conundra, and it seems to me to be Hardy's 
job to edit so that the unfortunate is not vilified eternally, or, 
worse, indulged by a sequence of posts that write the essay for the 
student. On the other hand, wilful and invincible ignorance or bizarre 
theorising is just as likely to produce apoplexy. I know of at least one 
extremely eminent UK academic who has seriously debated continuance out 
of frustration at the peripheral trivia that clutters postings, and he 
is an acknowledged world expert in a particular field, and this list 
would be very much the poorer for his departure. I am not arguing for 
elitism, just knowledge of texts.

It is all very well to say press delete, but generally, one has to read 
to assess, by which time the blood pressure level is already rising. 
Yes, certain respondents achieve automatic nul points and deletion, but 
there are many who compass-less gallop onto cliff tops without fully 
realising what they are doing to their own cases, and the credibility of 
the list in general.

Like Holger Syme, one of my major aversions is for those who write as if 
the characters in plays were real, with back stories or forward stories. 
That seems to suggest so fundamental a misunderstanding of how drama / 
theatre is made as to render most of what they then go on to say as 
worthless, for they are reducing Shakespeare to an interactive soap 
opera. That has to be seriously worrying in a forum which was intended 
to be an exchange of scholarly or near scholarly opinion, hasn't it?

[4]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		Stephen Rose <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Saturday, 19 Nov 2005 10:43:16 -0800
Subject: 16.1906 Dead Horses and Closing Threads
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.1906 Dead Horses and Closing Threads

I run a forum with nearly 10K active participants. It would be 
impossible to do without our Terms of Use. All decisions must be 
justified by explicit provisions in the TOU. That would be a proper way 
to specify threads and posts that will either be edited, deleted, moved 
or archived. Once a TOU exists that is the standard for all decisions 
one needs only to refer list members to it or update it. I would suggest 
creation of a TOU whose reading was mandatory on registration and for 
existing members and a renaming of the Netiquette document or its 
incorportation into the TOU. Best, S

[5]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		Marvin Bennet Krims <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Saturday, 19 Nov 2005 14:23:36 -0500
Subject: 16.1906 Dead Horses and Closing Threads
Comment: 	RE: SHK 16.1906 Dead Horses and Closing Threads

I suppose the quick answer as to why people insist on beating dead 
horses might be because we humans are predisposed to quarrel endlessly 
over most anything especially over what concerns us most.

But also, the fact we get so involved in such arguementation speaks to 
Shakespeare's capacity to evoke real people in real situations with a 
stroke of the quill.

Marvin Krims

[6]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		John W. Kennedy <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Saturday, 19 Nov 2005 14:42:46 -0500
Subject: 16.1906 Dead Horses and Closing Threads
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.1906 Dead Horses and Closing Threads

Larry Weiss <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>

 >Impermissible posts:
 >
 >The "authorship question"

This is already a long-established policy.

 >Reviews of local, provincial and student performances, especially if 
they have closed

Surely /all/ stage productions are "local", by definition.

[7]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		Sarah Cohen <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Saturday, 19 Nov 2005 18:22:21 -0800
Subject: 16.1906 Dead Horses and Closing Threads
Comment: 	RE: SHK 16.1906 Dead Horses and Closing Threads

I am heartened that Mr. Syme would have the list be for "academic and 
theatre people alike". I am dismayed, however, that he includes in his 
list of objectionable threads those that "speak of literary characters 
as though they were real people."

Actors do this all the time. If theatre people are to be included on the 
list, please do not ban discussion of the inner lives and backstories of 
characters. It is surely as useful to our own discipline as talk of 
railed stages is to literary research.

I suggest, though, that actors (and other non-academic readers) meet the 
scholars halfway, and, in any discussion about the lives of 
Shakespeare's characters, offer textual support for their positions.

Thank you.

Sarah Cohen

[8]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		David Evett <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Saturday, 19 Nov 2005 22:15:54 -0500
Subject: 16.1889 Dead Horses and Closing Threads
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.1889 Dead Horses and Closing Threads

Holger Schott's remarks deserve consideration by all the members of the 
list: those of us who have allowed ourselves to be seduced by so 
appealing a soapbox, and those of us who have allowed the soapbox 
orators to preempt useful additions to the treasury of knowledge and 
thought concerning our common subject.

David Evett

[9]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		David Bishop <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Sunday, 20 Nov 2005 01:33:33 -0500
Subject: 16.1906 Dead Horses and Closing Threads
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.1906 Dead Horses and Closing Threads

I have a suggestion for tightening up this list a little: put a word 
limit on posts. Hardy could set his filter to allow the first 250 (or 
whatever) words and cut off the rest. People would soon learn, and the 
discipline might be salutary. Of course the moderator would be free to 
override the limit at his discretion.

Best wishes,
David Bishop

[10]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		Phyllis Gorfain <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Sunday, 20 Nov 2005 23:30:12 -0500
Subject: 16.1906 Dead Horses and Closing Threads
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.1906 Dead Horses and Closing Threads

I hope I am not beating a dead horse, but I want to add my support for 
Hardy's decision to cut off some threads sooner than he would have 
earlier.  I trust Hardy's careful judgment (always considered) about 
what threads need to be cut off as he has been, I think, eminently fair 
about allowing discussion of most topics (with the exception of 
authorship and, more recently, cryptology).  Clearly Hardy has allowed 
the listserv to grow and change, and he has welcomed students, actors, 
directors, Shakespeare fans, and scholars, even though the listserv 
began as an academic forum.  If Hardy deems a thread or topic to have 
run its course because he sees that a small number of people continue to 
write in, or that the question has been answered sufficiently, or for 
other reasons deems the thread not likely to generate useful discussion, 
I believe we will all benefit from a more vital Shaksper that is lively, 
significant, and helpful.

Phyllis Gorfain
Oberlin College


_______________________________________________________________
S H A K S P E R: The Global Shakespeare Discussion List
Hardy M. Cook, This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
The S H A K S P E R Web Site <http://www.shaksper.net>

DISCLAIMER: Although SHAKSPER is a moderated discussion list, the 
opinions expressed on it are the sole property of the poster, and the 
editor assumes no responsibility for them.

Modern Bowdlerizations

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 16.1913  Monday, 21 November 2005

From: 		Jack Lynch <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Saturday, 19 Nov 2005 12:42:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 	Modern Bowdlerizations

Dear folks,

Can anyone provide me with examples of recent bowdlerizations of 
Shakespeare's plays?  I'm told that, even today, some school textbooks 
silently omit the bawdy passages.  I'd like to find some current examples.

Of course adaptations -- especially those for children, such as _The 
Lion King_ -- often tone down the naughty bits.  But I'm less interested 
in such adaptations than in texts that purport to be the "real 
Shakespeare," and yet still remove things that are offensive.

I'll also be glad for any glosses or notes that intentionally play down 
the naughtiness -- not merely sins of omission (no gloss, for instance, 
on "country matters") but sins of commission (those that deliberately 
misrepresent the original bawdry).

_______________________________________________________________
S H A K S P E R: The Global Shakespeare Discussion List
Hardy M. Cook, This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
The S H A K S P E R Web Site <http://www.shaksper.net>

DISCLAIMER: Although SHAKSPER is a moderated discussion list, the 
opinions expressed on it are the sole property of the poster, and the 
editor assumes no responsibility for them.

New Internet Shakespeare Editions Website

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 16.1911  Monday, 21 November 2005

From: 		Michael Best <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Saturday, 19 Nov 2005 10:06:21 -0800
Subject: 	New Internet Shakespeare Editions Website

Shaksper-ians will be pleased to hear that the Internet Shakespeare 
Editions has just launched a completely redesigned website, with some 
significant enhancements. The address remains the same: ise.uvic.ca.

Apart from improved navigation and a new look -- one which reflects the 
increased capacity of the Web to display images and text attractively -- 
there are two major new resources. Our database of Shakespeare in 
Performance is now a reality, and we have a growing library of 
easily-browsed facsimiles of the early editions of the plays.

Shakespeare in Performance provides comprehensive information about 
Shakespeare on film. Thanks to the generosity of Kenneth Rothwell, we 
have put online all the information in his work Shakespeare on Screen: 
An International Filmography and Videography. This has been updated by 
Tanya Gough and Jose Ramon Diaz Fernandez. We have also begun the 
process of digitizing performance materials from a wonderful range of 
productions of Shakespeare, beginning with North America. We are 
including such items as prompt books, costume designs, and programs, and 
will be adding reviews and other kinds of materials as they become 
available (and as our research assistants have time).

Another major new feature is our growing library of facsimiles of each 
play. We have images of Folios 1, 2, 3, and 4 from the State Library of 
New South Wales, and will be adding an additional First Folio soon; 
thanks to the generosity of the British Library, we will be able to add 
all the significant quartos, some of which are already in our database. 
One unusual tool we provide is the capacity to search on the 
old-spelling text to find pages in the facsimiles where a word or phrase 
occurs. (We will soon be able to add to this the rather nice feature of 
"fuzzy" searching, so that the computer will find most variants of 
old-spelling words, even if the user types in modern spelling.)

Each play now has a home page that collects information about it from 
across the site: the available electronic texts (Quarto, Folio, 
Modern-spelling, etc.), the facsimiles (ditto), productions and films on 
the play, references to it in the section of the site on Shakespeare's 
Life and Times, and links to other sites on the Web that refer to the 
play. The first of our fully-edited texts are beginning to appear, and 
we are experimenting with ways of displaying them most effectively. We 
now have twenty two distinguished editors under contract; the texts are 
being completely re-edited and re-imagined for the electronic medium.

A technical note. The original site was largely made up of individually 
developed pages, many going back to the early days of the Web (way back 
in 1996!). The new site is almost completely created "on the fly" from 
databases. The advantage is that navigation across the site is more 
unified, new content can be added quickly and easily, and searching is 
more sophisticated.

The site has already had some "usability" testing, but we welcome 
comments and observations. Please feel free to reply off-list to 
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it..

Cheers--
Michael

_______________________________________________________________
S H A K S P E R: The Global Shakespeare Discussion List
Hardy M. Cook, This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
The S H A K S P E R Web Site <http://www.shaksper.net>

DISCLAIMER: Although SHAKSPER is a moderated discussion list, the 
opinions expressed on it are the sole property of the poster, and the 
editor assumes no responsibility for them.

CFP: Medieval Children Conference 2006 (UK)

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 16.1912  Monday, 21 November 2005

From: 		Medieval Children <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Sunday, 20 Nov 2005 20:04:28 +0000
Subject: 	CFP: Medieval Children Conference 2006 (UK)

The Canterbury Centre for Medieval and Tudor Studies, University of Kent 
at Canterbury, UK, is hosting an interdisciplinary conference: Medieval 
Children 1200-1500, on 17-18 June 2006. Keynote and featured speakers 
include Prof. Nicholas Orme (History, Exeter, UK), and Prof. Peter 
Beidler (English, Lehigh, US).

UPDATE: Please note that the deadline of the abstract submission is now 
moved to 31/12/2005 (originally 31/01/2006). Those who have previously 
expressed interest in offering papers, please email to confirm. Any 
further expression of intent in attending the conference, with or 
without offering a paper, are also welcome.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CALL FOR PAPERS

Medieval Children: 1200-1500

17 (Saturday) -18 (Sunday) June 2006 (will include Friday the 16th if 
necessary)


Keynote Speaker:

Prof. Nicholas Orme (History, University of Exeter)

Foregrounding interdisciplinarity, CCMTS welcomes papers employing any 
literary, historical, art-historical, demographic, or anthropological 
approaches and source materials. **Any Christian and non-Christian, 
Western and Oriental attitudes and practices about children are 
especially welcome to offer a point of contrast.**

Possible topics include but are not limited to:
---------------------------------------------------------

Parents and children

Incest, child abuse, sexual initiation, and education of children

Fosterage and abandonment

Generation conflict

Perceptions of children

Children as leaders of adults

Children on crusade

** Aspects about Tudor children may also be of interest to the conference.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Prof. Peter G. Beidler (Lehigh University, US) has offered to lead a 
pre/post-conference walking tour to Harbledown ("Bobbe-up-and-down", 
under the Blean forest), to pick up the trail that Chaucer's pilgrims 
may well have followed to the West Gate and the Cathedral. They will 
pass the spring where the Black Prince is said to have visited often.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please send any enquiries, or a title and 200-word abstract for a 
20-minute paper, by 31 December 2005, to Christine Li Ju Tsai: 
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. .

Postal address: School of English, University of Kent, Canterbury, Kent, 
United Kingdom, CT2 7NZ

_______________________________________________________________
S H A K S P E R: The Global Shakespeare Discussion List
Hardy M. Cook, This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
The S H A K S P E R Web Site <http://www.shaksper.net>

DISCLAIMER: Although SHAKSPER is a moderated discussion list, the 
opinions expressed on it are the sole property of the poster, and the 
editor assumes no responsibility for them.

"Translated and Improved"

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 16.1910  Saturday, 19 November 2005

[1] 	From: 	Norman Hinton <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
	Date: 	Thursday, 17 Nov 2005 11:58:23 -0600
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.1903 "Translated and Improved"

[2] 	From: 	John W. Kennedy <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
	Date: 	Thursday, 17 Nov 2005 15:54:56 -0500
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.1903 "Translated and Improved"


[1]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		Norman Hinton <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Thursday, 17 Nov 2005 11:58:23 -0600
Subject: 16.1903 "Translated and Improved"
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.1903 "Translated and Improved"

 >>Antonio had in the past shunned such transactions since, taking as
 >>absolute the Bible's prohibition against lending on interest (actually
 >>only to co-religionists) ...
 >
 >Where is the prohibition in the Bible?  I ask because last Sunday's 
gospel,
 >the 'parable of the talents', seems to condone the practice ...
 >
 >"His master answered him, "You wicked and lazy servant!  ... you should
 >have deposited my money with the bankers, and on my return I would
 >have recovered my capital with interest"." (Matt. 25: 26-27).
 >
 >Peter Bridgman

Among other places:
Exodus 22:25
Levticus 25:36
Leviticus 25:37
Deuteronomy 23:19
Nehemiah 5:10
Psalm 15:5
Ezekiel 18:8-14
Ezekiel 22:12

This does not include the verse that says you can charge interest to 
'foreigners'.

The KJB does not use the term "interest" -- it will speak of 'usury' and 
other terms instead in such passages.  But the sense is not hard to follow.

[2]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		John W. Kennedy <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Thursday, 17 Nov 2005 15:54:56 -0500
Subject: 16.1903 "Translated and Improved"
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.1903 "Translated and Improved"

Peter Bridgman <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>

 >David Basch writes ...
 >
 >>Antonio had in the past shunned such transactions since, taking as
 >>absolute the Bible's prohibition against lending on interest (actually
 >>only to co-religionists) ...
 >
 >Where is the prohibition in the Bible?  I ask because last Sunday's 
gospel,
 >the 'parable of the talents', seems to condone the practice ...

Exodus 22:25 - If thou lend money to any of my people that is poor by 
thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon 
him usury.

Leviticus 25:36-37 - Take thou no usury of him, or increase: but fear 
thy God; that thy brother may live with thee. Thou shalt not give him 
thy money upon usury, nor lend him thy victuals for increase.

Deuteronomy 23:19-20 - Thou shalt not lend upon usury to thy brother; 
usury of money, usury of victuals, usury of any thing that is lent upon 
usury: Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother 
thou shalt not lend upon usury: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in 
all that thou settest thine hand to in the land whither thou goest to 
possess it.

...among others. The principle was taken up by Christianity, and 
reinforced by the rediscovery of Aristotle's /Ethics/. Islam forbids all 
usury to this day, albeit with much the same loopholes that were to be 
found in Judaism and Christendom before they effectively surrendered the 
point in the 19th century.

 >"His master answered him, "You wicked and lazy servant!  ... you
 >should have deposited my money with the bankers, and on my return
 >I would have recovered my capital with interest"." (Matt. 25: 26-27).

The parables of the Unjust Steward (Luke 16:1-8) and the Unjust Judge 
(Luke 18:1-9) are the classic examples that the parables of Jesus make 
one and only one point, and are not to be read closely on side issues.

_______________________________________________________________
S H A K S P E R: The Global Shakespeare Discussion List
Hardy M. Cook, This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
The S H A K S P E R Web Site <http://www.shaksper.net>

DISCLAIMER: Although SHAKSPER is a moderated discussion list, the 
opinions expressed on it are the sole property of the poster, and the 
editor assumes no responsibility for them.

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