2005

Performing Angelo

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 16.1667  Thursday, 29 September 2005

[1] 	From: 	D Bloom <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
	Date: 	Tuesday, 27 Sep 2005 11:13:21 -0500
	Subj: 	RE: SHK 16.1643 Performing Angelo

[2] 	From: 	Peter Bridgman <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
	Date: 	Thursday, 29 Sep 2005 12:03:30 +0100
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.1643 Performing Angelo


[1]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		D Bloom <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Tuesday, 27 Sep 2005 11:13:21 -0500
Subject: 16.1643 Performing Angelo
Comment: 	RE: SHK 16.1643 Performing Angelo

I would certainly never accuse Quart of being on the "bandwagon of hymen 
worship."

But I am not talking about "hymen worship." I am talking about vows of 
celibacy, which, for those without previous sexual experience, means 
virginity. In the history of Christianity, this refers first to men, and 
then only secondarily to women. In the view of St. Paul and the author 
of Revelations (and perhaps also to Jesus Christ), this is considered a 
very great virtue, and has continued to be so regarded by the Roman 
Catholic Church. For all I know, the church may be right.

And that is the point. Does Quart consider the Catholic Church to be 
stupid and neurotic for encouraging celibacy, and demanding it of those 
with a vocation to become a priest, monk or nun? If so, fine. For all I 
know, SHE may be right. But it doesn't seem quite fair to savage 
Isabella for wanting to follow the dictates of her faith and her sense 
of being called by God, even though the faith is dead wrong. If not, of 
course, then it follows likewise that Isabella is simply following the 
guidance of her church, which turns out to be quite correct in its view.

It is a question of (1) logic, the relationship of an act to an accepted 
religious conviction, and (2) respect for religious convictions.

Cheers,
don

PS. A religious vow is a matter between the individual and God. In the 
case of celibacy, it becomes public and formalized when one enters the 
priesthood or takes the veil, but it can easily exist beforehand, and 
commonly does.

[2]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		Peter Bridgman <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Thursday, 29 Sep 2005 12:03:30 +0100
Subject: 16.1643 Performing Angelo
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.1643 Performing Angelo

Abigail Quart asks ...

 >... does anyone believe she [Isabella] blows off the Duke and returns 
to the nunnery for her wedding date with Jesus?

Of course she "blows off the Duke".  If Shakespeare's intention is that 
Isabella accepts the Duke's marriage offer, there is no reason at all 
for WS not to show this.  A "happy ending" would satisfy the conventions 
of Comedy writing, and would give the play the resolution it lacks.

WS broke with conventions and left his play with an unsatisfactory 
ending for a very good reason.  Because it would've been dangerous for 
WS to show Isabella returning to the convent.

Peter Bridgman

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Shakespeare goes to high school

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 16.1666  Thursday, 29 September 2005

[1] 	From: 	Lauryn Sasso <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
	Date: 	Tuesday, 27 Sep 2005 11:53:09 -0400
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.1645 Shakespeare goes to high school

[2] 	From: 	Mari Bonomi <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
	Date: 	Tuesday, 27 Sep 2005 11:55:37 -0400
	Subj: 	RE: SHK 16.1645 Shakespeare goes to high school

[3] 	From: 	Richard Burt <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
	Date: 	Tuesday, 27 Sep 2005 12:02:05 -0400
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.1645 Shakespeare goes to high school

[4] 	From: 	Terence Hawkes <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
	Date: 	Tuesday, 27 Sep 2005 12:56:46 -0400
	Subj: 	SHK 16.1645 Shakespeare goes to high school


[1]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		Lauryn Sasso <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Tuesday, 27 Sep 2005 11:53:09 -0400
Subject: 16.1645 Shakespeare goes to high school
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.1645 Shakespeare goes to high school

My experience isn't terribly long ago (only early/mid 1990's) but as I 
remember it the pattern in my RI high school was:

9th grade - Romeo and Juliet
10th grade - Julius Caesar
11th grade - American Lit. thus no Bard
12th grade - Macbeth

I remember that each teacher did include use of film versions in their 
lessons, we saw Zeffirelli's R+J, the Caesar with James Mason and 
Brando, and Roman Polanski's Macbeth....I still remember my 9th grade 
English teacher, a wonderful but rather old fashioned woman, turning the 
television set around to face the back wall until the postcoital scene 
in R+J was over....

-Lauryn Sasso

[2]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		Mari Bonomi <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Tuesday, 27 Sep 2005 11:55:37 -0400
Subject: 16.1645 Shakespeare goes to high school
Comment: 	RE: SHK 16.1645 Shakespeare goes to high school

In Connecticut Romeo and Juliet tends to be 9th grade, with Macbeth, 
Hamlet and possibly Othello scattered about.  Not a lot of Julius 
Caesar. The district where I taught for almost 40 years, however, 
flouted a lot of traditions:

We did American Lit in 10th grade, Brit Lit in 11th (despite the 
textbook publishers insisting that Am Lit was "book 11" and Brit Lit 
"book 12").  We did Julius Caesar in 9th grade, now I believe replaced 
w/ MND.  R&J still holds pride of place in 10th grade (I know, not Am. 
Lit but we have never accepted removing Shakespeare from such a 
formative learning year).

I taught an elective history of Western civ class (seniors only, 
team-taught w/ a history teacher) where in various years I did Othello, 
Richard II, Richard III, Merchant.  And we had a semester elective 
Shakespeare course which originally was a lit class but evolved/devolved 
(depending on your interpretation) into a performance-based class... 
Less analysis of "lit" and more "how will it play on stage."

Oh yes... We compete every year in the English Speaking Union's 
Shakespeare recital competition.

Mari Bonomi

[3]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		Richard Burt <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Tuesday, 27 Sep 2005 12:02:05 -0400
Subject: 16.1645 Shakespeare goes to high school
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.1645 Shakespeare goes to high school

 >>In the 1990s, a teacher was fired for teaching Twelfth Night.
 >
 >How do you get fired for teaching "Twelfth Night"?  (Yes, I know, 
"Only in America...")

Total homophobia.  The play's cross-dressing was read an endorsement of 
"the homosexual lifestyle."  By teaching it, the teacher was said to 
have also endorsed same.  I think it was in 1993.

A tn performed at UF last Fall straightened out the play, much like the 
ending of Trevor Nunn's film, to avoid controversy.

[4]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		Terence Hawkes <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Tuesday, 27 Sep 2005 12:56:46 -0400
Subject: Shakespeare goes to high school
Comment: 	SHK 16.1645 Shakespeare goes to high school

In 1945, in the American sector of Berlin, the US military government 
banned all performances of 'Julius Caesar' and 'Coriolanus'.

T. Hawkes

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Joshua Logan and Hamlet

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 16.1664  Thursday, 29 September 2005

From: 		John Reed <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Thursday, 29 Sep 2005 21:29:32 +0000
Subject: 	Re: Joshua Logan and Hamlet

Although realizing this thread has had a lot of inactivity recently, 
it's still bothering me.  So once again I am going to presume upon your 
patience with another post, now that I've thought it over a little.

Getting back to the quotation we had to start with:

"A play should take its protagonist through a series of experiences 
which lead to a climactic moment...when he learns something about 
himself that he could have known all along but has been blind to.  This 
discovery comes as such an emotionally shattering blow... that it 
changes the entire course of his life, and that change must be for the 
better... the audience must feel and see the leading man or woman become 
wiser and the discovery must happen on stage in front of their eyes... 
it is true of Hamlet and Macbeth... You'll find it in every successful 
play.  For when the protagonist has this revelation, one which raises 
his moral stature, the audience can grow vicariously along with him. 
Thus, people leave the theater feeling better, healthier minded than 
when they arrived."

I like this observation, but again, I don't think it applies to Hamlet 
(or Macbeth).  Hamlet is active: he's the protagonist.  He walks, talks, 
thinks, interacts with others, and every once in a while talks directly 
to us, letting us know exactly what is going on in that pointy little 
head of his.  He makes decisions, and then goes on to put them into 
practice.  It's not enough.

Kenneth Chan might be right when he directs our attention to the 
audience.  Even the above quotation makes mention of it: "...that change 
must be for the better.  The audience must feel and see the leading 
man...become wiser."  In order for the change to qualify as an 
anagnorisis, the audience has to validate it - not the character.  The 
character can decide whatever he wants.  For these plays the audience in 
question is not necessarily us, but the original audience; the audience 
for whom the plays were originally written.

So, any prospective decision considered as a potential anagnorisis has 
to go through this filter.  I think there are two possibilities.  Either 
the decision by the character is in agreement with the standards the 
audience holds, or goes beyond them.  An author might do that; he might 
make a new standard (just like a judge might make a new law).  But if he 
does that it has to be a better, that is to say a higher, standard.

Is anyone going to argue that what Hamlet thinks, decides, and does 
towards the end of the play are things that are either in agreement with 
the standards the original audience had, or represents something better?

These interludes where Hamlet makes up his mind to do this and that are 
not anagnorises.  They're more like fake anagnorises; instead of 
realizing how bad he is and doing something all of a sudden better (if 
possible), Hamlet embraces an evil course of action, which is 
progressive (surprise).  It is as though he has a series of 
anti-anagnorises.

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DISCLAIMER: Although SHAKSPER is a moderated discussion list, the 
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Caliban's Father

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 16.1665  Thursday, 29 September 2005

[Editor's Note: It seems to me that this thread has reached its useful 
life and further discussion should be conducted offline.]

From: 		Alan Horn <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Wednesday, 28 Sep 2005 01:25:56 EDT
Subject: 16.1640 Caliban's Father
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.1640 Caliban's Father

What strikes me about this thread is how much Joe Egert sounds like 
someone I believe he's taken issue with, David Basch.

In Egert's first post, after listing all the theological anagrams he's 
worked out from the character list of The Tempest, he asks, "All 
coincidence?" Where have we heard that line before? And, when 
challenged, he suggests that Shakespeare is a special case, a "Myriad 
Man" who is likely to have intended any meanings that might be 
attributed to him.

Basch, of course, goes beyond the standard belletristic search for 
wordplay and anagrams in applying interpretive methods to Shakespeare's 
texts that even in Jewish mysticism are traditionally reserved for the 
revealed word of God. But while this is going too far for most of us, 
many do share with him an obliviousness to the banality of coincidence 
and a belief that Shakespeare's works or canonical literary works in 
general are not subject to normal interpretive constraints.

Alan Horn

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DISCLAIMER: Although SHAKSPER is a moderated discussion list, the 
opinions expressed on it are the sole property of the poster, and the 
editor assumes no responsibility for them.

Timon

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 16.1663  Thursday, 29 September 2005

From: 		Reg Grouse <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Wednesday, 28 Sep 2005 11:44:21 +1000
Subject: 16.1637 Timon
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.1637 Timon

On pronunciation of Timon, I suggest that it is similar to Simon; that 
is, with a long 'i' with the accent on the first syllable, 'Ti'.  I 
believe the word would need a double 'm' to become Tim mon.

This as I see it is modern English usage, but how Shakespeare pronounced 
it I know not.

Cheers,
Reg.

_______________________________________________________________
S H A K S P E R: The Global Shakespeare Discussion List
Hardy M. Cook, This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
The S H A K S P E R Web Site <http://www.shaksper.net>

DISCLAIMER: Although SHAKSPER is a moderated discussion list, the 
opinions expressed on it are the sole property of the poster, and the 
editor assumes no responsibility for them.

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