Make a Donation

Consider making a donation to support SHAKSPER.

Subscribe to Our Feeds

Current Postings RSS

Announcements RSS

Home :: Archive :: 2005 :: September ::
ducdame
The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 16.1573  Tuesday, 20 September 2005

[1] 	From: 	Peter Bridgman <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
	Date: 	Monday, 19 Sep 2005 14:32:11 +0100
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.1561 ducdame

[2] 	From: 	D Bloom <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
	Date: 	Monday, 19 Sep 2005 09:05:06 -0500
	Subj: 	RE: SHK 16.1561 ducdame

[3] 	From: 	Scot Zarela <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
	Date: 	Monday, 19 Sep 2005 08:32:02 -0700
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.1561 ducdame

[4] 	From: 	Terence Hawkes <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
	Date: 	Monday, 19 Sep 2005 12:22:16 -0400
	Subj: 	SHK 16.1561 ducdame

[5] 	From: 	Mary Rosenberg <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
	Date: 	Monday, 19 Sep 2005 10:30:20 -0700
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.1561 ducdame

[6] 	From: 	JD Markel <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
	Date: 	Monday, 19 Sep 2005 17:38:58 -0700 (PDT)
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.1561 ducdame


[1]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		Peter Bridgman <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
Date: 		Monday, 19 Sep 2005 14:32:11 +0100
Subject: 16.1561 ducdame
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.1561 ducdame

JD Markel writes ...

 >>"Donovan did a great version of the song on 'A Gift From a
 >>Flower To a Garden' (1968).  He pronounced it 'doosk-dame'."
 >
 >Which song was it?  `Wear Your Love Like Heaven' has some
 >strange verbiage, but I think your "doosk-dame" comes from
 >another song in the album.

The track is 'Under the Greenwood Tree'.  Donovan combines UTGT with the 
'ducdame' lyric.

Peter Bridgman

[2]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		D Bloom <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
Date: 		Monday, 19 Sep 2005 09:05:06 -0500
Subject: 16.1561 ducdame
Comment: 	RE: SHK 16.1561 ducdame

JD Markel, in answer to my suggestion that "ducdame" is hopelessly 
obscure,  explains to us, "'Duc' is the present imperitive active 2d 
singular of duco, the command "draw together" or "bring" "lead."  Like 
'duc' 'da' has only one possible declension, and the same as duc's - 
pres. imper. active second singular -  of 'Do.'   Da would command "hand 
over" "give up" "render" "surrender" "pay" etc.  So 'ducdame' could mean 
something akin to a command "draw together and (sur)render to me." Mere 
"coincidence" this translation nears "come hither" and declined the 
same?  This would not be a "Greek invocation" but S had "lesse Greek".
;-)"

I rest my case.

Cheers,
don

[3]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		Scot Zarela <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
Date: 		Monday, 19 Sep 2005 08:32:02 -0700
Subject: 16.1561 ducdame
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.1561 ducdame

JD Markel suggests a Latin derivation --- probably unnecessarily, 
inasmuch as Jaques defines the word promptly.  And two imperative verbs 
in the singular don't quite fit the sense, unless each fool is to be 
called severally.  Well, maybe.

Then JD adds (with a wink) that the phrase "Greek invocation" is a 
misidentifier (perhaps deliberate and comic?).  But on the other hand, 
doesn't "greek" here connote "gypsy"?

[4]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		Terence Hawkes <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
Date: 		Monday, 19 Sep 2005 12:22:16 -0400
Subject: ducdame
Comment: 	SHK 16.1561 ducdame

Everybody knows that 'ducdame' is taken from Welsh.

Terence Hawkes

[5]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		Mary Rosenberg <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
Date: 		Monday, 19 Sep 2005 10:30:20 -0700
Subject: 16.1561 ducdame
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.1561 ducdame

About ducdame and its possible pronunciation and origin, you might look 
at Walter Whiter's Specimen of a Commentary on Shakespeare: Notes on "As 
You Like It" (Alan Over edition, Methuen 1967, pp.21-23.

Mary Rosenberg

[6]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		JD Markel <
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 >
Date: 		Monday, 19 Sep 2005 17:38:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 16.1561 ducdame
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.1561 ducdame

Thinking more on words tagged as "obscure" - here's a personal experience.

Four years ago I read Measure for Measure.  At 3.1 appears these lines:

CLAUDIO:
The prenzie Angelo!

ISABELLA:
O, 'tis the cunning livery of hell,
The damned'st body to invest and cover
In prenzie guards! Dost thou think, Claudio?
If I would yield him my virginity,
Thou mightst be freed.

What's "prenzie?"  The edition I read said the meaning was unknown. 
Comments in other editions were similar.  Onions' glossary stated it was 
a "doubtful word."

Unsatisfied, I thought it might be Italian - the play transpires in 
Italy.  I opened an Italian/English dictionary and there it was - 
"prenze" (no i)- meaning "princely."  A good fit.

I relate my experience to suggest to others here there may be some good 
avenues of S. word use research to pursue, if interested in etymology. 
For example, start with every word deemed "obscure" in the canon of 
commentary and (re)check it against dictionaries and data bases such as 
EEBO TCP.  Might shed some new light on some matters long deemed 
unsolvable.

The research results can be entertaining too.  Today I I found this 1977 
article by Bernard Levin:

http://members.iconn.net/~ab234/Plays/Devil_is_an_Ass/DVUngentle.html

"The Birmingham Rep have also brought Measure for Measure, in which at 
any rate they speak the tongue that Shakespeare spake. (Well, almost; 
"the prenzie" Angelo becomes "the precise," but since the word, a hapax 
legomenon with no known meaning, is almost certainly a First Folio 
misprint, Mr Burge's guess is as good as those of the editors)."

"Hapax legomenon" - gotta remember that one!

_______________________________________________________________
S H A K S P E R: The Global Shakespeare Discussion List
Hardy M. Cook, 
 This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 
The S H A K S P E R Web Site <http://www.shaksper.net>

DISCLAIMER: Although SHAKSPER is a moderated discussion list, the 
opinions expressed on it are the sole property of the poster, and the 
editor assumes no responsibility for them.
 

©2011 Hardy Cook. All rights reserved.