The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 16.1573 Tuesday, 20 September 2005
[1] From: Peter Bridgman <
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Date: Monday, 19 Sep 2005 14:32:11 +0100
Subj: Re: SHK 16.1561 ducdame
[2] From: D Bloom <
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Date: Monday, 19 Sep 2005 09:05:06 -0500
Subj: RE: SHK 16.1561 ducdame
[3] From: Scot Zarela <
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Date: Monday, 19 Sep 2005 08:32:02 -0700
Subj: Re: SHK 16.1561 ducdame
[4] From: Terence Hawkes <
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Date: Monday, 19 Sep 2005 12:22:16 -0400
Subj: SHK 16.1561 ducdame
[5] From: Mary Rosenberg <
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Date: Monday, 19 Sep 2005 10:30:20 -0700
Subj: Re: SHK 16.1561 ducdame
[6] From: JD Markel <
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Date: Monday, 19 Sep 2005 17:38:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subj: Re: SHK 16.1561 ducdame
[1]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From: Peter Bridgman <
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Date: Monday, 19 Sep 2005 14:32:11 +0100
Subject: 16.1561 ducdame
Comment: Re: SHK 16.1561 ducdame
JD Markel writes ...
>>"Donovan did a great version of the song on 'A Gift From a
>>Flower To a Garden' (1968). He pronounced it 'doosk-dame'."
>
>Which song was it? `Wear Your Love Like Heaven' has some
>strange verbiage, but I think your "doosk-dame" comes from
>another song in the album.
The track is 'Under the Greenwood Tree'. Donovan combines UTGT with the
'ducdame' lyric.
Peter Bridgman
[2]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: D Bloom <
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Date: Monday, 19 Sep 2005 09:05:06 -0500
Subject: 16.1561 ducdame
Comment: RE: SHK 16.1561 ducdame
JD Markel, in answer to my suggestion that "ducdame" is hopelessly
obscure, explains to us, "'Duc' is the present imperitive active 2d
singular of duco, the command "draw together" or "bring" "lead." Like
'duc' 'da' has only one possible declension, and the same as duc's -
pres. imper. active second singular - of 'Do.' Da would command "hand
over" "give up" "render" "surrender" "pay" etc. So 'ducdame' could mean
something akin to a command "draw together and (sur)render to me." Mere
"coincidence" this translation nears "come hither" and declined the
same? This would not be a "Greek invocation" but S had "lesse Greek".
;-)"
I rest my case.
Cheers,
don
[3]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: Scot Zarela <
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Date: Monday, 19 Sep 2005 08:32:02 -0700
Subject: 16.1561 ducdame
Comment: Re: SHK 16.1561 ducdame
JD Markel suggests a Latin derivation --- probably unnecessarily,
inasmuch as Jaques defines the word promptly. And two imperative verbs
in the singular don't quite fit the sense, unless each fool is to be
called severally. Well, maybe.
Then JD adds (with a wink) that the phrase "Greek invocation" is a
misidentifier (perhaps deliberate and comic?). But on the other hand,
doesn't "greek" here connote "gypsy"?
[4]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: Terence Hawkes <
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Date: Monday, 19 Sep 2005 12:22:16 -0400
Subject: ducdame
Comment: SHK 16.1561 ducdame
Everybody knows that 'ducdame' is taken from Welsh.
Terence Hawkes
[5]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: Mary Rosenberg <
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Date: Monday, 19 Sep 2005 10:30:20 -0700
Subject: 16.1561 ducdame
Comment: Re: SHK 16.1561 ducdame
About ducdame and its possible pronunciation and origin, you might look
at Walter Whiter's Specimen of a Commentary on Shakespeare: Notes on "As
You Like It" (Alan Over edition, Methuen 1967, pp.21-23.
Mary Rosenberg
[6]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: JD Markel <
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Date: Monday, 19 Sep 2005 17:38:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 16.1561 ducdame
Comment: Re: SHK 16.1561 ducdame
Thinking more on words tagged as "obscure" - here's a personal experience.
Four years ago I read Measure for Measure. At 3.1 appears these lines:
CLAUDIO:
The prenzie Angelo!
ISABELLA:
O, 'tis the cunning livery of hell,
The damned'st body to invest and cover
In prenzie guards! Dost thou think, Claudio?
If I would yield him my virginity,
Thou mightst be freed.
What's "prenzie?" The edition I read said the meaning was unknown.
Comments in other editions were similar. Onions' glossary stated it was
a "doubtful word."
Unsatisfied, I thought it might be Italian - the play transpires in
Italy. I opened an Italian/English dictionary and there it was -
"prenze" (no i)- meaning "princely." A good fit.
I relate my experience to suggest to others here there may be some good
avenues of S. word use research to pursue, if interested in etymology.
For example, start with every word deemed "obscure" in the canon of
commentary and (re)check it against dictionaries and data bases such as
EEBO TCP. Might shed some new light on some matters long deemed
unsolvable.
The research results can be entertaining too. Today I I found this 1977
article by Bernard Levin:
http://members.iconn.net/~ab234/Plays/Devil_is_an_Ass/DVUngentle.html
"The Birmingham Rep have also brought Measure for Measure, in which at
any rate they speak the tongue that Shakespeare spake. (Well, almost;
"the prenzie" Angelo becomes "the precise," but since the word, a hapax
legomenon with no known meaning, is almost certainly a First Folio
misprint, Mr Burge's guess is as good as those of the editors)."
"Hapax legomenon" - gotta remember that one!
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