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Home :: Archive :: 2005 :: September ::
ducdame
The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 16.1582  Thursday, 22 September 2005

[1] 	From: 	Larry Weiss <
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	Date: 	Tuesday, 20 Sep 2005 12:39:52 -0400
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.1573 ducdame

[2] 	From: 	D Bloom <
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	Date: 	Tuesday, 20 Sep 2005 12:37:27 -0500
	Subj: 	RE: SHK 16.1573 ducdame

[3] 	From: 	JD Markel <
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	Date: 	Tuesday, 20 Sep 2005 15:22:44 -0700 (PDT)
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.1573 ducdame


[1]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		Larry Weiss <
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Date: 		Tuesday, 20 Sep 2005 12:39:52 -0400
Subject: 16.1573 ducdame
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.1573 ducdame

 >I thought it might be Italian - the play transpires in Italy.

Right. But to get to Vienna, Italy, it is necessary to travel from the 
nearest seaport of Bohemia.

[2]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		D Bloom <
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Date: 		Tuesday, 20 Sep 2005 12:37:27 -0500
Subject: 16.1573 ducdame
Comment: 	RE: SHK 16.1573 ducdame

Terence Hawkes writes, "Everybody knows that 'ducdame' is taken from Welsh."

In fact, the last time I concerned myself AYLI on a scholarly basis, the 
Welsh seemed to be the best out of sizable list proffered meanings.

Hawkes, however, is completely confident. Does that mean there is new 
material that all but eliminates other possibilities, or that his 
personal review of the issue leaves him in no doubt?

Cheers,
don

[3]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		JD Markel <
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Date: 		Tuesday, 20 Sep 2005 15:22:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 16.1573 ducdame
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.1573 ducdame

Don writes:

"I rest my case."

You got me there!

Terence writes:

"Everybody knows that 'ducdame' is taken from Welsh."

Interested, googled, found:

"Ducdame refrain that Jaques suggests for a song. Among possible 
sources/references: Latin: "duc ad me" (bring to me), Italian: "Duc' da 
me" (duke by myself), Welsh: "dewch 'da mi" (come with me)."

Someone before thought Latin.  I think the Welsh more probable because 
it's funnier, given the audience, and the set-up's riposte is in 
punchline form. There is little in the play to think mere gibberish 
would be used on the occasion.  We're presented with a joke, I like the 
Welsh answer.

Pointing out the increasing usefulness of the web I googled "prenzie 
princely".  Sam Johnson noted it, here's a site with his complete notes 
on the comedies:

http://www.blackmask.com/books119c/7joshdex.htm

He responds to a script replacing princely for prenzie:

"The first folio has, in both places, prenzie, from which the other 
folios made princely, and every editor may make what he can."

I don't know if Johnson knew the Italian translation and disregarded it, 
I suspect neither, but earlier editors knew the Italian possibility.

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