2005

Hamlet an Allegory

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 16.1626  Monday, 26 September 2005

[1] 	From: 	John W. Kennedy <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
	Date: 	Saturday, 24 Sep 2005 18:46:49 -0400
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.1604 Hamlet an Allegory

[2] 	From: 	Gabriel Egan <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
	Date: 	Monday, 26 Sep 2005 09:05:22 +0100
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.1604 Hamlet an Allegory


[1]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		John W. Kennedy <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Saturday, 24 Sep 2005 18:46:49 -0400
Subject: 16.1604 Hamlet an Allegory
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.1604 Hamlet an Allegory

Steve Roth <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>

 >Gabriel Egan:
 >
 >>"If the Round or any other Officer come to search to watch &
 >>Sentinels, when he doth first heare or see them approch, let him
 >>so soone as he doth perceive them, demand with a lowd voice,
 >>Qui va la? Who goes there?"
 >
 >I've seen this before, but found it less than useful because I find
 >the first "he" to be decidedly ambiguous. Ambiguous to the point
 >that I'm not completely sure which side Gabriel is arguing here.
 >
 >I think that "he" most likely refers to the sentinel, who's standing
 >still. On hearing the approach of the officer making the rounds,
 >the sentinel should say "who's there?"

Precisely how is "he" to refer to "them", the "Sentinels"?

[2]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		Gabriel Egan <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Monday, 26 Sep 2005 09:05:22 +0100
Subject: 16.1604 Hamlet an Allegory
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.1604 Hamlet an Allegory

Steve Roth writes

 >>>"If the Round or any other Officer come to search to watch &
 >>>Sentinels, when he doth first heare or see them approch, let him
 >>>so soone as he doth perceive them, demand with a lowd voice,
 >>>Qui va la? Who goes there?"
 >
 >I've seen this before, but found it less than useful because I find the
 >first "he" to be decidedly ambiguous.

I see the problem. I read "them" referring to the plural "Sentinels" and 
"he" as "the Round or any other Officer", but Steve is right that the 
pronouns could (with only a little grammatical error) apply the other 
way round.

Privately, Charles Edelman provides a different reason to think the 
'breaking of protocol' commonplace is mistaken.  By 1.1.8 Francisco has 
been relieved, and yet he cries "Stand! Who's there?" to the approaching 
Horatio and Marcellus. If only the sentry officially on duty should make 
the challenge, Barnardo ought (as Charles puts it) to "pipe in with 
'Hey! That's my job!'" They're jittery, yes, but military protocol 
hasn't broken down.

Gabriel Egan

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What Happens in "Hamlet"

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 16.1625  Monday, 26 September 2005

[1] 	From: 	Jim Blackie <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
	Date: 	Saturday, 24 Sep 2005 09:43:21 -0400 (EDT)
	Subj: 	RE: SHK 16.1605 What Happens in "Hamlet"

[2] 	From: 	Larry Weiss <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
	Date: 	Saturday, 24 Sep 2005 11:54:11 -0400
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.1605 What Happens in "Hamlet"


[1]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		Jim Blackie <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Saturday, 24 Sep 2005 09:43:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 16.1605 What Happens in
Comment: 	RE: SHK 16.1605 What Happens in

Very helpful. I'll update my notes with that information. I can readily 
understand why your web site URL has the identifier "scholar."

Do we really need patronizing attitudes in an attempt to discuss this?

Jim Blackie

 >Bill Arnold : "Well, as I have written already on this matter, I will 
respond
 >summarily. Jim and Arnie are walking that yellow brick road that many of
 >us have from Wilson to Bernard Grebanier's Castle of *The Heart of
 >Hamlet." So, I recommend that to spare us all, you top off your golden
 >trip with a look inside the castle, and behind the curtain, and blow
 >away the smoke and see the mirrors! Then, we can relate. Gladly!"

Bill Arnold
http://www.cwru.edu/affil/edis/scholars/arnold.htm

[2]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		Larry Weiss <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Saturday, 24 Sep 2005 11:54:11 -0400
Subject: 16.1605 What Happens in "Hamlet"
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.1605 What Happens in "Hamlet"

I am surprised that none of the experienced sentries who have 
corresponded on this thread have commented about the most striking 
aspect of the opening line:  The wrong sentry issues the challenge. 
Francisco is already on guard and Barnardo approaches to relieve him; so 
Francisco should issue the challenge, as he makes clear in line 2.

I don't recall seeing a performance in which this was made clear, but if 
it is the audience would be alerted in the first line or two that (1) 
something is amiss and (2) the new guard (but not the old) is 
particularly on edge and may be expecting an intruder.  Since the ghost 
walks at the same hour each night, it is to be expected that the sentry 
on duty at that time, but not the sentry he relieves, would be alert to 
the possibility.  Lines 5 and 6 heighten this impression -- Barnardo is 
careful to arrive on time and eager to spare Francisco the horror or to 
prevent the incident from becoming general knowledge.

To my mind, "Who's there?" is the most dramatically effective opening 
line ia all of literature.

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Caliban's Father

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 16.1623  Monday, 26 September 2005

From: 		Richard Kennedy <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Saturday, 24 Sep 2005 08:08:44 -0700
Subject: 16.1602 Caliban's Father
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.1602 Caliban's Father

Joseph Egert writes: "Bruce Young remains unconvinced as to Myriad Man's 
anagrammatic playfulness. There is little question Montaigne's 
"cannibal" figured prominently in the monster's moniker."

And which is a good enough anagram for the rules of the Elizabethans, as 
written out by William Drummond of Hawthornden.. Hamlet, of course, is a 
perfect anagram for Amleth. Those who deny such word-play, or even 
ciphers, in Elizabethan published work, would not recognize that the E's 
were the most secretive literary society that ever existed, from the 
tips of their tongues to nibs of their pens, a literary bunch of writers 
so folded in on themselves it's a wonder that their pages can be laid flat.

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Performing Angelo

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 16.1624  Monday, 26 September 2005

[1] 	From: 	Mari Bonomi <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
	Date: 	Saturday, 24 Sep 2005 09:51:15 -0400
	Subj: 	RE: SHK 16.1601 Performing Angelo

[2] 	From: 	Larry Weiss <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
	Date: 	Saturday, 24 Sep 2005 12:01:39 -0400
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.1601 Performing Angelo

[3] 	From: 	Larry Weiss <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
	Date: 	Saturday, 24 Sep 2005 12:06:05 -0400
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.1601 Performing Angelo


[1]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		Mari Bonomi <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Saturday, 24 Sep 2005 09:51:15 -0400
Subject: 16.1601 Performing Angelo
Comment: 	RE: SHK 16.1601 Performing Angelo

On the subject of probable in-play ages, and regarding Abigail Quart's 
response to Charles Weinstein's quoting Claudio's speech:

Ay, but to die and go we know not where...
To bathe in fiery floods, or to reside
In thrilling region of thick-ribbed ice...

and so on.

(Hmmm... Did Shakespeare know The Inferno? Oops, sorry, wrong thread!)

She then comments, "Hyperbole. Big time."

Reading the speech plopped onto the page as the two have done I 
suddenlyrealized what I was reminded of:

Oh bid me leap...
 From off the battlements of any tower,
Or walk in thievish ways, or bid me lurk
Where serpents are; chain me with roaring bears
Or hide me nightly in a charnel house,
O'er covered quite with dead men's rattling bones,
With reeky shanks and yellow chapless skulls,
Or bid me go into a new-made grave,
And hide me with a dead man in his shroud....

and also

Oh if I wake, shall I not be distraught
Environed with all these hideous fears
And madly play with my forefathers' joints
And pluck the mangled <name excised> from his shroud
And in this rage, with some great kinsman's bone,
As with a club dash out my desperate brains?

I'm sure most of you recognize the source: someone who "hath not seen 
the change of 14 years"-someone not even, in her father's estimation 
"ripe to be a bride"-

Who is more likely to be hyperbolic than an adolescent?

I think Claudio has more in common with Juliet (and Romeo, and Mercutio) 
than with the sober-sided adults of Shakespeare's world.

Mari Bonomi

[2]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		Larry Weiss <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Saturday, 24 Sep 2005 12:01:39 -0400
Subject: 16.1601 Performing Angelo
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.1601 Performing Angelo

Abigail Quart regards Claudio's expressed fear of dying and death as 
"hyperbole" and concludes that he is not a committed Christian. 
Hyperbolic to be sure, but no more so than the images of hell offered up 
in Sunday sermons.  It is the very hyperbole that convinces me that 
Claudio does share common religious notions.

[3]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		Larry Weiss <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Saturday, 24 Sep 2005 12:06:05 -0400
Subject: 16.1601 Performing Angelo
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.1601 Performing Angelo

 >my theory sits comfortably astride Occam's Razor

What an image!  Comfortably?

_______________________________________________________________
S H A K S P E R: The Global Shakespeare Discussion List
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The S H A K S P E R Web Site <http://www.shaksper.net>

DISCLAIMER: Although SHAKSPER is a moderated discussion list, the 
opinions expressed on it are the sole property of the poster, and the 
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Greek Drama

The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 16.1622  Monday, 26 September 2005

[1] 	From: 	Joseph Tate <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
	Date: 	Saturday, 24 Sep 2005 09:58:39 -0700
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.1598 Greek Drama

[2] 	From: 	Tom Krause <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
	Date: 	Sunday, 25 Sep 2005 16:56:14 -0400
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.1598 Greek Drama


[1]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		Joseph Tate <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Saturday, 24 Sep 2005 09:58:39 -0700
Subject: 16.1598 Greek Drama
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.1598 Greek Drama

This is perhaps a bit off topic, but may be of interest: Peter 
Stallybrass's essay "The Mystery of Walking" in the _Journal of Medieval 
and Early Modern Studies_ (32:571-580) looks at resemblances between 
King Lear and _Oedipus Rex_. There's no suggestion made that Shakespeare 
read Sophocles; Stallybrass just does a remarkable job close reading the 
plays side-by-side.

Joseph Tate
Oregon State University

[2]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		Tom Krause <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Date: 		Sunday, 25 Sep 2005 16:56:14 -0400
Subject: 16.1598 Greek Drama
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.1598 Greek Drama

Matthew Steggle writes:

 >"Certainly, Jonson has read Aristophanes, and models bits of, for 
instance,
 >_The Staple of News_ on episodes from
 > those plays, as well as borrowing Aristophanes's "old comic freedom" of
 >representing living individuals on stage."

And of course, Shakespeare modeled his debasement metaphors on 
Aristophanes's pioneering allusion in The Frogs, and borrowed the "old 
comic freedom" in Measure for Measure to boot, as I've explained elsewhere.

Tom Krause

_______________________________________________________________
S H A K S P E R: The Global Shakespeare Discussion List
Hardy M. Cook, This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
The S H A K S P E R Web Site <http://www.shaksper.net>

DISCLAIMER: Although SHAKSPER is a moderated discussion list, the 
opinions expressed on it are the sole property of the poster, and the 
editor assumes no responsibility for them.

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