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Home :: Archive :: 2005 :: August ::
Roses
The Shakespeare Conference: SHK 16.1359  Monday, 22 August 2005

[1] 	From: 	Stuart Manger <
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	Date: 	Friday, 19 Aug 2005 13:53:00 +0100
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.1351 Roses

[2] 	From: 	Colin Cox <
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	Date: 	Friday, 19 Aug 2005 09:04:18 -0700
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.1351 Roses

[3] 	From: 	David Basch <
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	Date: 	Sunday, 21 Aug 2005 22:24:11 -0400
	Subj: 	Re: SHK 16.1351 Roses


[1]-----------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		Stuart Manger <
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Date: 		Friday, 19 Aug 2005 13:53:00 +0100
Subject: 16.1351 Roses
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.1351 Roses

 >"The discovery of "Shagspere" in the dedication would also seem to clear
 >up another mystery: the nature of the relationship between the fair
 >youth and the poet, and whether or not it was consummated"

Erm.... sorry, don't see why this 'clears it up'? You mean that no fair 
youth could possibly fall for / be involved with / or know a guy with a 
name like that?

Or what?

Yrs baffled of UK.

[2]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		Colin Cox <
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 >
Date: 		Friday, 19 Aug 2005 09:04:18 -0700
Subject: 16.1351 Roses
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.1351 Roses

 >David Basch writes, "'Shagspere' happens to be one of the versions of
 >the poet's name and would indicate that he arranged the dedication."

'Marley' is an alternative to Marlowe, does this indicate he was a dancer?

Colin Cox

[3]-------------------------------------------------------------
From: 		David Basch <
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Date: 		Sunday, 21 Aug 2005 22:24:11 -0400
Subject: 16.1351 Roses
Comment: 	Re: SHK 16.1351 Roses

Larry Weiss wrote:

 >I know full well that Basch is referring to Jahweh [as
 >the One to Whom the Sonnets are dedicated], which raises
 >an interesting question of how WS knew that He has "a
 >woman's face .. [but was] pricked out for women's
 >pleasure." I have heard people claim to have a close
 >personal relationship with the deity, but not to that
 >extent.

In this Larry Weiss shows that he does not pay attention to my 
explanations of my views since I did explain the so-called young man 
that the poet tells he is enamored of in many of his sonnets. This young 
man is none other than the poet's higher self, his higher angel, 
personified as an ideal, handsome young man. The poet loves him since 
this spirit represents the poet's aspiration to attain the high state of 
purity and goodness. I learned about him from one of Shakespeare's 
sonnets in which he tells of their first meeting.

The young man is in contrast to the poet's lower angel, personified as a 
highly attractive, lusty woman, that draws the poet to human, 
terrestrial appetites. This is a necessary part of human nature or men 
would not reproduce or be able to provide for their selfish needs in 
preserving themselves. It is a necessary duality that is conceived as 
having been given by God.

Below, for example, are some of the poet's lines in Sonnet 108 
addressing his higher self. Note that the poet calls him "my true spirit."

                      108

     [1]  VV Hat's in the braine that Inck may character ,
     [2]     Which hath not figur'd to thee my true spirit,
     [3]  What's new to speake,what now to register,
     [4]  That may expresse my loue,or thy deare merit ?
     [5]  Nothing sweet boy,but yet like prayers diuine,
     [6]  I must each day say ore the very same,
     [7]  Counting no old thing old,thou mine,I thine,
     [8]  Euen as when first I hallowed thy faire name.

Note that the poet images expressions of his love to this "sweet" boy, 
that is, "sweet" meaning of high character in Elizabethan English, in 
the guise of "prayers divine," describing these "divine prayers" as 
being said over and over each day, ever the same.

The personification of this "true spirit," being male, young, and 
idealized, is pictured with the most ideal of characteristics that are 
admired by the opposite sex. Through Sonnet 20, the poet tells how he 
must approach this self through a pure love, fitting for a godly higher 
angel sent by the Lord to all young men (and to young women too as an 
angelic young lady) at the age of twelve or thirteen, which is part of 
the allegory that the Sonnets as a whole present.

As I have mentioned before, it would not do for the poet to have been 
discovered as dedicating his Sonnets to God and he needed a fig leaf to 
divert hostile eyes from discovering this. This is done by the embedment 
of the names of Wriothesley and Hatcliffe (sounded Hatliffe). 
Semblances of these names and the Tetragrammaton are there in the Sonnet 
and are not products of my imagination, though the interpretation of 
what they mean can be argued about. They can be ignored but their 
presence can't be annulled.

The true "friends" of the Sonnets become very evident when the Sonnets 
are studied and the allegory that it presents is revealed through the 
many signs and devices the poet used. But of course if this exploration 
is avoided, then it won't be seen, to the loss of anyone who wishes to 
understand the true meaning of this work, as Shakespeare hoped would one 
day occur. He tried his best in Sonnets that are masterworks of poetry 
and steganography, necessary if the poet was to be allowed to present 
this spiritual conception. Can we do less to understand him?

Any more questions, Larry, or anyone?

David Basch

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